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Ahmad Jabari was killed on the 14th but the rocket fire started quite a few days before that! I know this for a fact from people living in Southern Israel that were already running to shelters then. My sources are direct in this case (rather than the news media).
I've never argued that the Palestinians weren't firing rockets, you incorrectly stated that the BBC didn't report on them as part of your argument that the BBC are biased. I produced the article to contradict your claim. I've always acknowledged the actuality and seriousness of the rocket attacks, and I have never claimed that the rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are anything other than unsupportable acts of terrorism.
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BTW, the rocket fire on Southern Israel from Gaza has already been going for several years. It started some time after the Israelis vacated Gaza. So Israel gives this land to the Palestinians to control and their reaction is to start firing rockets at Israel.
Chava I cringed while reading this. Israeli troops occupied Gaza against international law from 1967 until 2005, yet you sound as if you think the Palestinians ought to have been grateful for the withdrawal. If I locked you in a room, tied you to a chair and punched you in the face every day for 38 years, and then one day I stop punching you but still left you locked in the room, should I expect your gratitude? Could I reasonably expect you to forget how I've treated you, or that you're still locked up in a room?
Chava I cringed while reading this. Israeli troops occupied Gaza against international law from 1967 until 2005, yet you sound as if you think the Palestinians ought to have been grateful for the withdrawal. If I locked you in a room, tied you to a chair and punched you in the face every day for 38 years, and then one day I stop punching you but still left you locked in the room, should I expect your gratitude? Could I reasonably expect you to forget how I've treated you, or that you're still locked up in a room?
Eoin
Eoin: I cringe when you don't mention that the Palestinians were put in refugee camps in Gaza between 1948/9-1967 by the Egyptians (not by the Israelis!). So why didn't the Palestinians revolt against the Egyptians during that time? The Egyptians refused to give them citizenship and absorb them into Egyptian society (not to mention the fact that they didn't help them create some kind of independent Palestinian state). So your arguments should be focused on the Egyptians who created the situation who are the Arab "brothers" of the Palestinians.
Eoin: I cringe when you don't mention that the Palestinians were put in refugee camps in Gaza between 1948/9-1967 by the Egyptians (not by the Israelis!). So why didn't the Palestinians revolt against the Egyptians during that time? The Egyptians refused to give them citizenship and absorb them into Egyptian society (not to mention the fact that they didn't help them create some kind of independent Palestinian state). So your arguments should be focused on the Egyptians who created the situation who are the Arab "brothers" of the Palestinians.
Chava, I promise you I'm cringing harder.
You say that the Palestinians were 'put' in refugee camps. What I'm sure you meant to say, is that aid agencies created refugee camps in Gaza to house the Palestinians who were not being allowed to return to their homes by the Israeli Government. That is what aid agencies do. Why would the Gazan's revolt against the Egyptians when Egypt was the foremost party in trying to regain their lost territory? Conversely, why should the Egyptian Government grant citizenship to foreign refugee's? Do Western Governments grant citizenship to every citizen displaced by wars that they are involved in? (e.g. Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan?) No they don't, nor is it incumbent upon them to do so. The fact that one country intervenes militarily on behalf of another does not and has never meant accepting the entire population of that country as citizens. It's ludicrous of you to suggest that they should. I'm not taking a position on whether the Egyptians made for wonderful occupiers of Gaza compared to the Israeli's - because it's utterly irrelevant. The context of the two occupations were diametrically opposed.
It was the Zionist movement who dispossessed the Palestinian people of their country, their homes and their land - and it is the Zionist movement (now Israel) who hold primary responsibility in compensating and agreeing terms with the Palestinians they have wronged.
You say that the Palestinians were 'put' in refugee camps. What I'm sure you meant to say, is that aid agencies created refugee camps in Gaza to house the Palestinians who were not being allowed to return to their homes by the Israeli Government. That is what aid agencies do. Why would the Gazan's revolt against the Egyptians when Egypt was the foremost party in trying to regain their lost territory? Conversely, why should the Egyptian Government grant citizenship to foreign refugee's? Do Western Governments grant citizenship to every citizen displaced by wars that they are involved in? (e.g. Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan?) No they don't, nor is it incumbent upon them to do so. The fact that one country intervenes militarily on behalf of another does not and has never meant accepting the entire population of that country as citizens. It's ludicrous of you to suggest that they should. I'm not taking a position on whether the Egyptians made for wonderful occupiers of Gaza compared to the Israeli's - because it's utterly irrelevant. The context of the two occupations were diametrically opposed.
Eoin
I agree with you on the fact that aid agencies created the refugee camps in Gaza. But that is the only thing I agree with. There was no state of Palestine that the Egyptians were helping as the Palestinians did not ever establish such a state and there has never been such a state. The Palestinians had the opportunity in 1948 to create such a state and decided not to. The Egyptians could have had helped the Palestinians create some kind of state in Gaza after the 1948/9 war was finished. But they chose not to.
The Palestinian and the Egyptians are Arabs and consider themselves Arab brethren. Therefore, the Egyptians should have felt obligated to help their Arab brethren to help establish new lives as Egyptian citizens. FYI the Jordanian Government gave the Palestinian refugees in Jordan that option - to become Jordanian citizens and to forgo their refugee status (and all claims that come from that). But Jordan was the exception here.
I agree with you on the fact that aid agencies created the refugee camps in Gaza. But that is the only thing I agree with. There was no state of Palestine that the Egyptians were helping as the Palestinians did not ever establish such a state and there has never been such a state. The Palestinians had the opportunity in 1948 to create such a state and decided not to. The Egyptians could have had helped the Palestinians create some kind of state in Gaza after the 1948/9 war was finished. But they chose not to.
There does not need to be an established state of Palestine in order for the Egyptians to help the Palestinians. It's a matter of the purest irrelevance whether Palestine had a functioning Government or not. The relevant facts are that the Palestinians formed the demographic majority of the established inhabitants of the region known since ancient history as Palestine. They are the people who legitimately owned most of the land that Israel now claims as its own territory, they either fled the conflict zone in 1948 or were ejected by the Haganah, and they have a rightful claim to the land. Israel has not offered them acceptable terms of compensation for their losses in spite of this being a UN resolution, and Israel alone is responsible for resolving this issue to the satisfaction of both sides. When the time comes, Israel is going to have to make peace terms with the people they have wronged.
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The Palestinian and the Egyptians are Arabs and consider themselves Arab brethren. Therefore, the Egyptians should have felt obligated to help their Arab brethren to help establish new lives as Egyptian citizens. FYI the Jordanian Government gave the Palestinian refugees in Jordan that option - to become Jordanian citizens and to forgo their refugee status (and all claims that come from that). But Jordan was the exception here.
Chava I genuinely don't understand your failure to see this point. The Palestinians were robbed by the Zionists. Morality dictates that the robber compensates the robbed, not that the robbers 'brother' compensates the robbed. If the 'brother' of the robbed is so kind to show an extraordinary level of compassion to the robbed - then that is a good reflection on the brother. However - it does not ameliorate the robber of his/her responsibility to the person(s) that he/she has robbed. The robber is still as guilty as ever.
You say that the Palestinians were 'put' in refugee camps. What I'm sure you meant to say, is that aid agencies created refugee camps in Gaza to house the Palestinians who were not being allowed to return to their homes by the Israeli Government. That is what aid agencies do. Why would the Gazan's revolt against the Egyptians when Egypt was the foremost party in trying to regain their lost territory? Conversely, why should the Egyptian Government grant citizenship to foreign refugee's? Do Western Governments grant citizenship to every citizen displaced by wars that they are involved in? (e.g. Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan?) No they don't, nor is it incumbent upon them to do so. The fact that one country intervenes militarily on behalf of another does not and has never meant accepting the entire population of that country as citizens. It's ludicrous of you to suggest that they should. I'm not taking a position on whether the Egyptians made for wonderful occupiers of Gaza compared to the Israeli's - because it's utterly irrelevant. The context of the two occupations were diametrically opposed.
It was the Zionist movement who dispossessed the Palestinian people of their country, their homes and their land - and it is the Zionist movement (now Israel) who hold primary responsibility in compensating and agreeing terms with the Palestinians they have wronged.
Eoin
listen to this man americans , you might learn something
I've never argued that the Palestinians weren't firing rockets, you incorrectly stated that the BBC didn't report on them as part of your argument that the BBC are biased. I produced the article to contradict your claim. I've always acknowledged the actuality and seriousness of the rocket attacks, and I have never claimed that the rocket attacks on Israeli citizens are anything other than unsupportable acts of terrorism.
Chava I cringed while reading this. Israeli troops occupied Gaza against international law from 1967 until 2005, yet you sound as if you think the Palestinians ought to have been grateful for the withdrawal. If I locked you in a room, tied you to a chair and punched you in the face every day for 38 years, and then one day I stop punching you but still left you locked in the room, should I expect your gratitude? Could I reasonably expect you to forget how I've treated you, or that you're still locked up in a room?
Eoin
You keep on mentioning the occupation from 1967-2005...... do you know why it happened? You really think in 1967 Israel just decided to take over Gaza because it felt like it?
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