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Old 11-24-2012, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,882,036 times
Reputation: 11259

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 16trillionandcounting View Post
Your point being? Are you suggesting that you support giving up liberty in order to secure temporary safety?
What good did the Constitution do Jefferson's slaves?

 
Old 11-24-2012, 03:05 PM
 
Location: ATX-HOU
10,216 posts, read 8,115,191 times
Reputation: 2037
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16trillionandcounting View Post
Your point being? Are you suggesting that you support giving up liberty in order to secure temporary safety?
My point being is I want laws and rules that reflect today's issues. I don't think terrorism will go away or other threats to our safety, so I'm not too sure what you mean by temporarily safe.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 03:07 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
16,911 posts, read 10,584,341 times
Reputation: 16439
Quote:
Originally Posted by dv1033 View Post
The world has changed quite a lot since the the 18th century.
In what way has the world changed that justifies the Patriot Act and the NDAA?
 
Old 11-24-2012, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,882,036 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey View Post
In what way has the world changed that justifies the Patriot Act and the NDAA?
We ignored Washington's advice and started policing the world thus pissing off half the world's population. Liberty and empire are incompatible.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 05:52 PM
 
27,117 posts, read 15,303,353 times
Reputation: 12057
Quote:
Originally Posted by whogo View Post
What good did the Constitution do Jefferson's slaves?



The wronful actions of men do not vacate the precept.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,882,036 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesjuke View Post
The wronful actions of men do not vacate the precept.
I agree, but explaining to African-Americans why they should cherish federalism (never label it states' rights) can be difficult.

The classical liberal principles written in the Declaration unfortunately clashed with the realities of the era.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:11 PM
 
Location: The Brat Stop
8,347 posts, read 7,238,278 times
Reputation: 2279
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16trillionandcounting View Post
Sad to see that the work of the founding fathers has almost been completely stripped away. The constitution is no longer adhered to. The Patriot Act and NDAA where both passed without hardly a complaint.

America is no longer a nation of free men (and women), sad
Are you saying I can't go to the store anymore and buy the groceries I need? I can't go to the car wash? or the corner bar? or the park? I can't type here anymore? I can't voice my opinions?

When did this happen, because I went grocery shopping today and drove my car on freeways and streets, and I didn't see any tanks or armored personnel carriers or people with automatic weapons patrolling the streets. Did I miss something?

Maybe YOUR LIBERTIES were crushed in your own mind?
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:12 PM
 
2,003 posts, read 1,545,108 times
Reputation: 1102
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesjuke View Post
The wronful actions of men do not vacate the precept.
Cute, but not an actual answer. The fact is that, for most Americans, today offers vastly more freedom that 1776 did. I'll grant that things like TSA pat downs are bothersome, but in the end they're better than what young black and Latino men face from many police departments (particularly the NYPD), so I've got bigger fish to fry.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:13 PM
 
45,201 posts, read 26,421,987 times
Reputation: 24964
Im sure an animal raised in a zoo thinks its free as well.
 
Old 11-24-2012, 06:36 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,632 posts, read 14,936,361 times
Reputation: 15935
As a gay man I confess I get annoyed when people lecture me about "personal liberties"!

Being more than a half century old, I can tell you what lack of personal liberty was like for millions of LGBT folks right here in the US of A.

I am old enough to remember:

  • LGBT people were prohibited from all civil service and government jobs whether county, state, or federal level. I remember when Dr. Franklin E. Kameny, a brilliant Ivy-League trained scientist was unceremoniously dismissed from his government job for no other reason than that he was gay;
  • LGBT people were denied entry into the armed forces;
  • LGBT people were denied security clearances;
  • Bars, clubs, and meeting places where LGBT people would congregate were routinely and constantly being harassed and shut down by the police;
  • laws made it illegal for even consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes to engage in intimate lovemaking;
  • Police would arrest LGBT people and publicly humiliate and degrade them by forcing them to strip in police stations;
  • When government agencies carted ordinary LGBT people off to hospitals and psychiatrict facilities where barbaric "medical" procedures were performed on them against their will, such as electro-shock aversion therapy;
  • Colleges and universities had discriminatory policies against LGBT people ...
I could go on and on ...
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