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And here we have the primary theme of liberalism ... it's always someone else's fault. To the liberal, accepting personal responsibility is akin to dousing water on the wicked witch of the west ... they melt like an ice cream cone on a hot summer day.
What about it? What mindset do you think more prone to that type of behavior ... the woman who views pregnancy as the growth of a beautiful child for which it's life is held most precious, or one that looks upon the "fetus" as the growth of an unwanted mole? Take a wild guess?
No one has the right to kill another human being as an expression of freedom of choice. You have many choices .... that's not one of them. And only a malfunctioning mind could be so confused. You have a choice between chocolate, vanilla or strawberry .... you have a choice of chicken, pork, or beef .... you have countless choices .... but that does not include the choice to kill a defenseless baby. That's psychopathy ... not freedom.
I would challenge the sanity of this line of reasoning which seems very clearly to advocate the closing of banks as the best way to end bank robbery! That is what you are saying ... every abortion is justified because so many born children are abused and murdered ... the aborted child will be spared that suffering. Of course, he will also be spared the opportunity to live, which constitutes the overwhelming majority experience. End disease by killing all patients .... eliminate automobile accidents by eliminating cars ... this seems like "reason" to you, but it is really a glaring absence of reason.
It probably hasn't occurred to you that this growing problem of chid abuse and mistreatment is an outgrowth of the vile and morally bankrupt mindset that dismisses the value of life to begin with. Maybe you are the egg that leads to the chicken, and not the other way round? Has this possibility ever crossed your mind? Can you imagine the possibility that corruption can spread from the top down just as easily and more likely than the reverse? Can you consider the possibility that one expression of psychopathy might be symptomatic of a more broadly suffered disease which expresses itself in different ways? Can you not see how your advocacy of mass killing of unborn children by the Millions is so closely related to the murder of the born infants by mothers of similar psychological abnormality?
No, of course not. And neither is it likely that you can convince a drunk he's had enough to drink.
What are your solutions to stop this! How are you going to stop this all together.
I am not endorsing a thing, but this is the state of the world we live in, and going to get much worse sad to say.
Don't presume to know me cause you don't, and you know no one else personally on this forum.
Unless you have valid points to stop this, how is it going to stop.
And again just who the hell are you to judge. God is the judgement, and these people will get their judgement in the end, so don't worry about them.
Life is not that bowl of "CHERRIES" is it. There is so much sad in this world, a lot to go around and then some, too bad we do not have solutions to all the sad and negative in this world we live in.
You tell me right now, your solutions now to stop this, i don't have to agree right or wrong, not for my judgement.
Unless you know someone on this forum personally don't u dare presume a damn thing.
"For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."
Do you realize how much that bolded exception..."or the health of the mother" covers, and how it can be (and is) used?
Quote:
Originally Posted by california-jewel
In todays world it is sad, but there is too many unfit parents or unfit Moms without the Dad's in their child's life or both of them, who physically and mentally abuse babies and children, it is happening more and more, and these precious children are being murdered at the hands of that Mom who brought to life full term, their baby, and years later kill them. Or the case months ago where the young teem Mom's boyfriend murdered her little girl, makes me sick, but that is the reality also, of those having children, that are unfit.
I agree, it is sad. I recognize all the problems in our society that you cited, but they don't justify killing the unborn. Rather, they point to serious mental and psychological problems in a dysfunctional, sometimes sick, segment of society that should be addressed in other ways. Killing the baby doesn't solve the root problem, does it.
My observation has been (and that's not to point any fingers at you or anyone) that those who defend abortion most vehemently are frequently those who either have had an abortion and are dealing with after effects of it, or know someone who has. Many women who make the choice to abort their babies suffer emotional trauma for years afterward that they have trouble dealing with. The only way they can handle it is to go into denial and continue to tell themselves and the world that it is/was justified. That, also, is sad for it is so unlike a woman's (mother-to-be) nature to harm her own child, and unless they face what they have done, they will experience no healing.
Do you realize how much that bolded exception..."or the health of the mother" covers, and how it can be (and is) used?
I agree, it is sad. I recognize all the problems in our society that you cited, but they don't justify killing the unborn. Rather, they point to serious mental and psychological problems in a dysfunctional, sometimes sick, segment of society that should be addressed in other ways. Killing the baby doesn't solve the root problem, does it.
My observation has been (and that's not to point any fingers at you or anyone) that those who defend abortion most vehemently are frequently those who either have had an abortion and are dealing with after effects of it, or know someone who has. Many women who make the choice to abort their babies suffer emotional trauma for years afterward that they have trouble dealing with. The only way they can handle it is to go into denial and continue to tell themselves and the world that it is/was justified. That, also, is sad for it is so unlike a woman's (mother-to-be) nature to harm her own child, and unless they face what they have done, they will experience no healing.
This friend is not about agreeing or disagreeing. How do we stop this from happening. I do know women who have had abortions, that is not the issue.
I don't seriously feel that anyone is willingly justifing, the killing of an unborn. But what are the solutions short of stopping sex, to fix this problem.
The women i know who have had abortions, felt it was the right choice, and it was in many cases, due to severe medical complications, and illnesses that arose from them being pregnant. Infact so severe, that after my friends baby was 7 months old, she died. This is not always the case, but i don't have the resources to stop this.
This is not a issue about do we agree or disagree, it will continue to happen, so how do we stop this.
And i won't sit in judgement of my friend who gave her life for her baby, or other women who have abortions, i do not walk in their shoes, i can think they are scum all day and all nite, that won't change a thing.
In my other friends case, she had to abort, there was something wrappend around the baby's neck, and cut off circulation. The baby was strangled. I won't sit in judgement of their decision, that was made with medical personell.
Last edited by california-jewel; 01-29-2013 at 01:48 PM..
The world is crazy. We fight to save the whales, but we kill our unborn children.
Reminds me of laws that prohibit the destruction of Canadian geese eggs. Those nasty, aggressive geese that are in over-abundance in some areas, and they'll make a nest somewhere near the entrance to a store or something, and people can barely even walk past the nest without being attacked by that mama goose. But it's illegal to destroy the eggs. Illegal to destroy the eggs of bald eagles too .
Yet it's legal to have abortions.
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions, but even I see the whackiness of this.
Reminds me of laws that prohibit the destruction of Canadian geese eggs. Those nasty, aggressive geese that are in over-abundance in some areas, and they'll make a nest somewhere near the entrance to a store or something, and people can barely even walk past the nest without being attacked by that mama goose. But it's illegal to destroy the eggs. Illegal to destroy the eggs of bald eagles too .
Yet it's legal to have abortions.
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions, but even I see the whackiness of this.
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions either. Medically necessary, as determined between the woman and her physician, is understandable and ought to be acceptable to all.
I also see the points raised by california jewel, who has a heart for the woman in dire circumstances, and the child she carries. It is incredibly sad; and I also know women who have had abortions, women in our own family, who later regretted it and said, looking back, "I could have chosen differently...I would have made it, somehow..." and they proably would have. These really are life and death decisions and ought not to be made lightly, but not all people in those circumstances view it the same way.
The solution? A change of heart, change of culture and values - how to accomplish that is the question. Even God doesn't seem to matter to many, and as we devalue life of the unborn, we devalue life in general. It appears to be a downward spiral.
But with all that, there is still what's "right" and what is "wrong". It's pretty black and white to me, and nothing in personal circumstances (other than health issues) is a valid reason for robbing the developing child of life, a truly great gift and adventure.
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions either. Medically necessary, as determined between the woman and her physician, is understandable and ought to be acceptable to all.
I also see the points raised by california jewel, who has a heart for the woman in dire circumstances, and the child she carries. It is incredibly sad; and I also know women who have had abortions, women in our own family, who later regretted it and said, looking back, "I could have chosen differently...I would have made it, somehow..." and they proably would have. These really are life and death decisions and ought not to be made lightly, but not all people in those circumstances view it the same way.
The solution? A change of heart, change of culture and values - how to accomplish that is the question. Even God doesn't seem to matter to many, and as we devalue life of the unborn, we devalue life in general. It appears to be a downward spiral.
But with all that, there is still what's "right" and what is "wrong". It's pretty black and white to me, and nothing in personal circumstances (other than health issues) is a valid reason for robbing the developing child of life, a truly great gift and adventure.
I find one of my best friends of years ago, to be the most unselfish person i have ever met. Because she knew that carring her baby to term, would end her life.
She got cancer while pregnant, and the cancer was spreading, they made sure the baby was healthy and wouldd not be impacted by her cancer.
After she had her beautiful gorgeous baby boy, the cancer spread. It was one of the most sadest point in my life, and one of the best, to see true unconditional love, and a person so unselfish, that she would sacrifice her own life for that of her baby.
Seeing her everyday, go downhill each day, so weak, and so sickly, and the way she looked at her baby boy, was so heartwarming, i wish every women could feel those emotions. You knew looking into her sickly eyes, what was going thru them, i cried almost every day, thinking about what she was going thru, knowing she would not be around to see her baby who is now 23 years of age, and a wonderful compassionate loving young Man.
She had lost all her hair, was so sickly and so thin, but none of that stopped her from holding her baby and loving him, and loving each second more she had on earth with him. She was and is one of the most precious people i know.
I cannot today even watch those videos, without breaking down so badly, and everyone around her each day, wondering if this would be her last day with her baby boy.
That was a person who had so much love and so much compassion and someone so unselfish, that she died knowing she gave birth to someone who would never know his Mom.
Why can't all women be like her, i don't know, but that is true unconditional love, you die to bring a new life into this world.
There is so much in this world we really need to change, but honestly where the hell do we start, we argue and gripe over the stupidest of things.
Reminds me of laws that prohibit the destruction of Canadian geese eggs. Those nasty, aggressive geese that are in over-abundance in some areas, and they'll make a nest somewhere near the entrance to a store or something, and people can barely even walk past the nest without being attacked by that mama goose. But it's illegal to destroy the eggs. Illegal to destroy the eggs of bald eagles too .
Yet it's legal to have abortions.
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions, but even I see the whackiness of this.
Ah yes, the wackiness of hypocrisy. A political party who's adherents vehemently lash out at anyone who dares tell them they can't shoot to kill if they feel the need to protect themselves, usually from radio-blaring, iced-tea-carrying, wrong-driveway-entering innocents who happen to be actually alive and breathing and feeling human beings already on this earth.
But G-d forbid we want to scrape some undeveloped cells that have attached themselves unwantedly to our uteruses on the insides of our bodies, and woe be unto us. We're somehow evil scum.
We can't kill fetuses (geese eggs) but we can kill someone's actual son or daughter. That's ok with you folks.
Yeah, I'd say that's some wackiness right there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by southward bound
I'm not in favor of banning all abortions either. Medically necessary, as determined between the woman and her physician, is understandable and ought to be acceptable to all.
I also see the points raised by california jewel, who has a heart for the woman in dire circumstances, and the child she carries. It is incredibly sad; and I also know women who have had abortions, women in our own family, who later regretted it and said, looking back, "I could have chosen differently...I would have made it, somehow..." and they proably would have. These really are life and death decisions and ought not to be made lightly, but not all people in those circumstances view it the same way.
The solution? A change of heart, change of culture and values - how to accomplish that is the question. Even God doesn't seem to matter to many, and as we devalue life of the unborn, we devalue life in general. It appears to be a downward spiral.
But with all that, there is still what's "right" and what is "wrong". It's pretty black and white to me, and nothing in personal circumstances (other than health issues) is a valid reason for robbing the developing child of life, a truly great gift and adventure.
Well bless your sweet li'l ol' heart.
How about we get your party to start valuing the actual living. How about y'all stop denigrating the poor who can't afford to raise the children they decide to keep without a little help from the government that you think should be allowed to force them to bring those children into the world in the first place. How about y'all start showing some respect and compassion instead of hate and bile towards anyone who isn't as fortunate as you. How about you start demanding the government do what governments are supposed to do and protect the people from the powerful elite who currently have a stranglehold on our very survival.
No, that would be too generous of the right. Can't have that. Gotta force women to be chattel and saddle them with a life of poverty and shame because keeping them in their place makes you feel better about your own holier-than-thou selves.
G-d is going to have things laid out for some here all right, but I'd venture to say that those "some" are not the "some" you think they'll be.
When I argue against abortion, or against "The War on Women" I usually take a religious pov.
I met a man last week who is one of the smartest man I have ever met in my life. He explained to me that when I am arguing abortion with people who do not take religion into account, I shouldn't use religion as a basis for my beliefs, even if it is the basis of my beliefs. I should use logic.
So logically speaking, you should believe in the right to life, because all other rights extend from it. If you do not have life, you do not have anything. So if you do not believe that living is a right, then you should not believe we have rights.
That said, one could ask, "Well when does life begin?" some say, "When you can hear a heartbeat on the ultrasound." or "After 16 weeks." Well wouldn't that be like a woman saying, when she gets a positive reading on a pregnancy test, "Well I'm only sorta pregnant."? It's illogical.
So the point of this post is for the people who usually debate with me about abortion, and who think that I'm just some dumb, brainwashed, teenager, to try to refute logic. So go for it.
Maybe you should have asked the smartest man in the world how logic and the belief in the right to life are linked...so that way we both would understand.
Logic
refers to both the study of modes of reasoning (which are valid, and which are fallacious) and the use of valid reasoning.
belief
acceptance of truth of something: acceptance by the mind that something is true or real, often underpinned by an emotional or spiritual sense of certainty.
I find one of my best friends of years ago, to be the most unselfish person i have ever met. Because she knew that carring her baby to term, would end her life.
She got cancer while pregnant, and the cancer was spreading, they made sure the baby was healthy and wouldd not be impacted by her cancer.
After she had her beautiful gorgeous baby boy, the cancer spread. It was one of the most sadest point in my life, and one of the best, to see true unconditional love, and a person so unselfish, that she would sacrifice her own life for that of her baby.
Seeing her everyday, go downhill each day, so weak, and so sickly, and the way she looked at her baby boy, was so heartwarming, i wish every women could feel those emotions. You knew looking into her sickly eyes, what was going thru them, i cried almost every day, thinking about what she was going thru, knowing she would not be around to see her baby who is now 23 years of age, and a wonderful compassionate loving young Man.
She had lost all her hair, was so sickly and so thin, but none of that stopped her from holding her baby and loving him, and loving each second more she had on earth with him. She was and is one of the most precious people i know.
I cannot today even watch those videos, without breaking down so badly, and everyone around her each day, wondering if this would be her last day with her baby boy.
That was a person who had so much love and so much compassion and someone so unselfish, that she died knowing she gave birth to someone who would never know his Mom.
Why can't all women be like her, i don't know, but that is true unconditional love, you die to bring a new life into this world.
There is so much in this world we really need to change, but honestly where the hell do we start, we argue and gripe over the stupidest of things.
You sincerely have my deepest condolences for your loss. I know the pain of such tragedy all too well.
But let's be real here, no woman should be forced to sacrifice her own life for the sake of anyone else. Anyone. Ever. Under any circumstances. And not being willing to DIE for someone else doesn't make one a bad person.
My own cousin nearly died from an amniotic fluid embolism during pregnancy. It is a condition that doctors know very little about, and it comes on with absolutely no warning whatsoever. There are no symptoms that one can go to the doctor about in order to prevent one from happening. And when one starts, you generally have less than 5 minutes to act or the woman is dead.
The mortality rate is as high as 80 percent.
No one has the right to tell a woman that she has to take that kind of risk with her life. Ever.
Amniotic Fluid Embolism, eclampsia, circulatory collapse, heart attack, stroke: All risks of any pregnancy. Any pregnancy.
The government does not get to take away MY FREEDOM to elect not to take those risks with my life.
No matter how cute and cuddly you think babies are.
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Illegal to destroy the eggs of bald eagles too .
