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Old 02-20-2013, 10:36 AM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,074,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Stop it already. It's never about saving lives, saving children, reducing crime, protecting liberty, fighting tyranny, self-defense. None whatsoever.
Speaking for yourself and the other gun-grabbers, I see.

It is called "Projection". You are projecting your motivces etc., on others. You really are defining YOURSELF, however, by attempting to paint them with YOUR characteristics.

For your side, it really is NEVER about those issues. For your side it is SOLEY about Power and Control, and has been soley about Power and Control ever since mankind invented weapons, and the power-mongers sought to disarm everyone else, whether made of stone, wood, fiber, copper, bronze, iron or steel - the story is the same.

Well listen-up bucko - that story stops with the US. We have our owns means of defense, from criminal AND PREDATORY government, and we will never give them up, NEVER.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:32 AM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,492,612 times
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Quote:
The Court reached this conclusion after a textual analysis of the Amendment, an 3 examination of the historical use of prefatory phrases in statutes, and a detailed exploration of the 18th century meaning of phrases found in the Amendment. Although accepting that the historical and contemporaneous use of the phrase “keep and bear Arms” often arose in connection with military activities, the Court noted that its use was not limited to those contexts.4 Further, the Court found that the phrase “well regulated Militia” referred not to formally organized state or federal militias, but to the pool of “able-bodied men” who were available for conscription. Finally, the Court reviewed contemporaneous state consti- 5 tutions, post-enactment commentary, and subsequent case law to conclude that the purpose of the right to keep and bear arms extended beyond the context of militia service to include self-defense.

Using this “individual rights theory,” the Court struck down a District of Columbia law that banned virtually all handguns, and required that any other type of firearm in a home be dissembled or bound by a trigger lock at all times. The Court rejected the argument that handguns could be banned as long as other guns (such as long-guns) were available, noting that, for a variety of reasons, handguns are the “most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home.” Similarly, 6 the requirement that all firearms be rendered inoperable at all times was found to limit the “core lawful purpose of self-defense.”
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-CON...CONAN-2010.pdf

That's the standard you now have to go by. Your emotions won't make new standards and you'll either need to change the 2nd Amendment or abolish it. Your opinions mean nothing in this regard.

Have a good day.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:35 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,794,135 times
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The Unabridged Second Amendment

by J. Neil Schulman
(reprinted with author's permission, see below)

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers — who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of American Usage and Style: The Consensus.

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for Editor and Publisher, a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, American Usage and Style: The Consensus, has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:

"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the test of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"

[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,
"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' only to 'a well-educated electorate' — for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.

As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.

And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely. American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements regarding the owning and carrying of firearms — all of which is an abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms, guaranteed by the Constitution.
And even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.

It seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to preserve that right. No one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak?

Or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend that promise with our lives, our fortuned, and our sacred honor?

(C) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation. Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are credited. All other rights reserved.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Planet earth
3,617 posts, read 1,824,355 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
I will admit I have not done research, and I have no concrete determination of what the Founding Fathers meant precisely by the 2nd amendment.

But when I read people claim that it "is clear," or that anyone who disagrees with their interpretation is dead-wrong, or whatever, you know what that reminds me of?

Reminds me of Bible-thumpers from various denominations who all claim to know "the truth" and the "exact meaning" of certain Bible verses, getting angrier and angrier with people of other denominations for being so "blind to the truth".....while the clear, underlying message of loving all people gets trampled by the arrogance and the bickering.

I don't think it's possible to know precisely what the Founding Fathers had in their heads when they worded the 2a as they did.

Fortunately some of us aren't nearly as confused by this given the existence of the Federalist and the Anti-Federalist. This does not make us Bible-thumpers from various denominations who all claim to know "the truth" and the "exact meaning" of certain Bible verses, getting angrier and angrier with people of other denominations for being so "blind to the truth".....while the clear, underlying message of loving all people gets trampled by the arrogance and the bickering.

At least you are willing to admit you don't know.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:21 PM
 
26,694 posts, read 14,588,793 times
Reputation: 8094
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
lifeexplorer, hey another comment/question for you in response to the post above. To me, it's great to learn of those safety regulations and laws.......

.....but for those who argue that "shall not be infringed" means precisely that: NO infringement whatsoever, why is it ok to have the reg's currently in place, but some people (not necessarily you) get their britches in a wad when someone raises the possibility of additional regs/laws?

Do some of you think there should be NO regulations whatsoever? zip, zilch, nada?

This is not an attack --- I'm just trying to learn and make some sense of all this.
Currently, there are already close to 25,000 gun laws. Pretty much everything you can think of have already been regulated or illegal.

Personally, I'd propose laws that focus on criminals and controlling criminal activities. For example:

1. Additional 20 years mandatory for anybody who commits a felony with a firearm.
2. Straw purchaser, those knowingly selling firearm to known criminals, legal guardians of the mentally ill, and parents of children need to be tried as accomplice of the crime if the gun is used in a crime.
3. National registry of convicted felons and legally mentally ills, free for public to access.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:37 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,213,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiRob View Post
I would imagine it would mean that a "well regulated militia" refers to some type of militaristic organization that would protect the sovereignty of the Colonial states at the time. I believe that was their intent however I think the "founding fathers" would be horrified knowing they passed an Amendment to address a issue that was occuring at the time and now the ensuing gun violence that occurs in our society today.

you would be very wrong. what they would be horrified of, is that the federal government has made any type of regulation at all against any of the amendments.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:39 PM
 
20,484 posts, read 12,404,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Currently, there are already close to 25,000 gun laws. Pretty much everything you can think of have already been regulated or illegal.

Personally, I'd propose laws that focus on criminals and controlling criminal activities. For example:

1. Additional 20 years mandatory for anybody who commits a felony with a firearm.
2. Straw purchaser, those knowingly selling firearm to known criminals, legal guardians of the mentally ill, and parents of children need to be tried as accomplice of the crime if the gun is used in a crime.
3. National registry of convicted felons and legally mentally ills, free for public to access.

I am good with number 2 and number 3. But I’m not sure I get #1. If I am accosted by someone with a knife and I am stabbed and put in a hospital and end up with years of pain and rehab and can’t work because of injury (this does happen) and I meet another guy in the same shot from a bullet, I will not be happy to know his assailant got 20 years more than mine.

Justice should be about justice.


That being said, I am all for extended prison time for violent attacks of all kinds. Further I am FOR forcing prison inmates to EARN money to pay for their incarceration.
I would also add a number 4 that allows family members etc to get a mentally ill person involuntarily committed to a mental health facility on the potential that they could harm themselves or others.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:39 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,213,755 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
Try reading the constitution again.

The 2nd is to allow the people to be armed to defend the nation against hostile intruders which it had everything to do at the time.

The nation was fresh out of the revolutionary war and was in fear there would be more attacks to overthrow the still forming americas.

and they feared the government and a standing army as well.

hence, arm the populace and the individuals.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:51 PM
 
3,740 posts, read 3,074,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
and they feared the government and a standing army as well.

hence, arm the populace and the individuals.
When asked about the right to keep and bear arms, a Founder remarked "... as a last resort, to deter tyranny in government".
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:54 PM
 
20,484 posts, read 12,404,665 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
Try reading the constitution again.

The 2nd is to allow the people to be armed to defend the nation against hostile intruders which it had everything to do at the time.

The nation was fresh out of the revolutionary war and was in fear there would be more attacks to overthrow the still forming americas.
While this is accurate to a point, the second amendment is not a defined right based on this fear/principle.

The second amendment merely points out that the Right to keep and bear arms, pre-exists the constitution and is an extension of the right of the individual to protect him/herself.

As has been stated in this tread, quoting a solid authority, the inclusion of the words "well regulated militia" is not the scope and limit of the amendment, rather merely a stated reason for abridging the natural right itself.
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