Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Look - if 'turning away from God' was the cause of our moral ills, why do states with very low rates of church attendance, like Vermont and Oregon, have much lower rates of social ills (murder, teen pregnancy, etc.) than more God-fearing states like Louisiana or Texas? I posted a ranking of states in the US by murder rates (or, if you'd like, a ranking of which states best obey the BIBLICAL COMMANDMENT 'thou shalt not kill'), and the states of the Bible Belt fared terribly.
You are assuming there is a God in the first place, which has not be proven or disproved. As to the decline in morality... yes it is there and it is getting worse. Perhaps you understand now why most (if not all) presidential candidates are corrupted before they even reach the presidency or other political stations. Because men and women are so easily corruptible... such is the way of humankind... accept it and do not be angry. Nothing can fix it, we can only live through it.
Look - if 'turning away from God' was the cause of our moral ills, why do states with very low rates of church attendance, like Vermont and Oregon, have much lower rates of social ills (murder, teen pregnancy, etc.) than more God-fearing states like Louisiana or Texas? I posted a ranking of states in the US by murder rates (or, if you'd like, a ranking of which states best obey the BIBLICAL COMMANDMENT 'thou shalt not kill'), and the states of the Bible Belt fared terribly.
Explain that one for me.
I would venture to guess that differences in climate, income level, and racial diversity/conflict have more to do with the differences in rates of social problems between the groups of states you cite than religious affiliation or lack thereof.
I think in some cases religious perspectives put up walls around certain topics.. to where kids and families don't feel accepting or comfortable to discuss.. and so they keep things inside and act out in unhealthy ways...
Many poor african americans who are put in jail for various offenses.. have mother's at home that would would slap them into next week for their behaviours.. BUT many become victims of society... by whatever disenfranchisment is going on in thier personal lives.. that causes such behavior to foster... If we did a better job of protecting the poor and underclass and minorities...then mothers would not have to cry themselves to sleep every night and feel guilty for the choices their children make...
its not "their problem" its "our problem" as a society... and like I said earlier.. when people feel disconnected.. then they over compensate in other area's sometimes unhealthy destructive ways.. to fill that void...
I would venture to guess that differences in climate, income level, and racial diversity/conflict have more to do with the differences in rates of social problems between the groups of states you cite than religious affiliation or lack thereof.
This is indeed the usual response. But it implies that 'turning toward God' or 'away from God' is no more powerful a factor in social affairs than more mundane things like the composition of the particular society. And once we accept that this is the case, how can we place so much importance on the role of faith in social affairs at all?
That's my point - saying that "things are getting worse" because people have "turned away from God" seems to attribute too little power to these other more mundane factors. We like to imagine that there was some golden prelapsarian era of American history in our recent past. But when was that? What years?
Remember that the murder rate in America fell dramatically from 1991 to 2001, and is currently at rates we last saw in the mid-1960's. So, this prelapsarian era would have to be before that point in time. But then we run into issues of that era like segregation...
When it comes to poverty vs. abortion and gay rights... which affects more people? You could also argue abortion in most cases is a result of poverty (how many rich women do you see getting abortions? How many poor? Where are the planned parenthood clinics that you know of?)
I have not been able to find a church that takes care of the poor very well at all. I have seen some catholic churches doing ok. Yes I'm sure some evangelicals and other religons help the poor, but do they do it without trying to recruit more people? Anytime I've volunteered with a group like that its as much a bible study class as help for the poor.
Americans are strictly focused on money and I personally find the Republicans to be the bigger hypocrites, with the Democrats a very close second. I'll never vote for a party that thinks its ok to keep kids without health care but wants to overturn Roe v. Wade. Lets bring back debtor's prison and slavery if we're gonna do that
Show me a church or political party that focuses on poverty primarily and fixing our biggest problem as a global community and a nation and I will sign up.
"One cannot serve both God and wealth." -Matthew 6:24
This is indeed the usual response. But it implies that 'turning toward God' or 'away from God' is no more powerful a factor in social affairs than more mundane things like the composition of the particular society. And once we accept that this is the case, how can we place so much importance on the role of faith in social affairs at all?
That's my point - saying that "things are getting worse" because people have "turned away from God" seems to attribute too little power to these other more mundane factors. We like to imagine that there was some golden prelapsarian era of American history in our recent past. But when was that? What years?
Remember that the murder rate in America fell dramatically from 1991 to 2001, and is currently at rates we last saw in the mid-1960's. So, this prelapsarian era would have to be before that point in time. But then we run into issues of that era like segregation...
Good post, tablemtn.
It's too complex for any facile explanation, that's for sure. You have to figure in the unprecedented rates of illegal immigration, among other things.
"Prelapsarian" is an exagerated (if admittedly amusing) way to describe the "good old days" that some folks insist on referencing. As one on the verge of geezerhood, I know I'm guilty of it at times. I am coming around to the point of view that the media, which has become an increasingly shrill, ubiquitous presence, has convinced us of the essentially negative character of contemporary society. Augmenting this is the rise of the "problem" model used in the social sciences since the post-World War II era, and which has now pervaded all levels of pedagogy.
For myself, I know that I certainly feel nostalgic for a time when we were less aware of the warts of the world, and more willing to accept life as it came, rather than claim real or imagined harm from its inevitable vicissitudes. Things seemed better then -- but I am beginning to realize that I was better, too! Too many oldsters forget about the importance of perception...
As for "turning away from God": though not a believer myself, I can't imagine a God who could be "turned away from", if He was, indeed, God...
I agree that society is changing and getting 'worse' in some regards. Things are different. There is a social dislocation that comes along with this, and it can be unnerving. I just don't see how these megatrends can be changed or halted by another 'Great Revival' of the sort we've seen several times in American history.
My own feeling is that "loss of faith" is another way of communicating the idea that we have lost stability in society. It's nearly impossible these days in this modern economy to get a job with a company out of high school and stay with that company until you retire with a good pension. Over that period of time, it's much more likely that your company will be purchased, resold, changed, relocated, etc., and that your career there won't last but a few years before it changes radically or ends altogether.
'Loss of faith' is a proxy for 'loss of how life used to work.' But the error is assuming that we can go back to how things used to work by worshipping harder or worshipping in school, etc. Imagine that we do this, and God comes flooding back into our public schools. What material difference would it make, except that perhaps you'd be more inclined to pray for strength after finding out that your job has been reduced to part-time and relocated across the country?
I believe the truth of the Bible, when the psalmist says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God." How can anyone expect Almighty God to bless a country that has lost it's moral direction, has embraced secular humanism and moral relativism, legalized abortion, is in the process of legalizing same sex marriage, allows the transmission of immoral and profane tv programs into American homes, encourages early sexual activity and promiscuity, materialism, values of power and greed, glorifies violence in movies and entertainment, accepts in the name of free speech all kinds of profane blasphemy against the name of God(TV entertainers openly condemn Christian values which conflict with the free hedonistic values of our declining culture) and so forth.... As it has been shown throughout history, cultures that become corrupted by their own success, embrace immorality, homosexuality, and other vices, become by nature weak and chaotic. We as a nation will be eventually destroyed. God may delay His judgment for awhile, but it will come upon us inevitably.
I believe the truth of the Bible, when the psalmist says, "The wicked shall be turned into hell and all the nations that forget God." How can anyone expect Almighty God to bless a country that has lost it's moral direction, has embraced secular humanism and moral relativism, legalized abortion, is in the process of legalizing same sex marriage, allows the transmission of immoral and profane tv programs into American homes, encourages early sexual activity and promiscuity, materialism, values of power and greed, glorifies violence in movies and entertainment, accepts in the name of free speech all kinds of profane blasphemy against the name of God(TV entertainers openly condemn Christian values which conflict with the free hedonistic values of our declining culture) and so forth.... As it has been shown throughout history, cultures that become corrupted by their own success, embrace immorality, homosexuality, and other vices, become by nature weak and chaotic. We as a nation will be eventually destroyed. God may delay His judgment for awhile, but it will come upon us inevitably.
unfortunately... those issues lie within the personal decisions people make.. all the things you've listed.. are allowed to happen.. and have always been allowed to happen under the constitution... but the fabric of society chose to allow this to foster or not foster... we cannot ask the government to step in and counteract it.. that is not the answer.. because agency is a god given right... and so to our constitution allows agency.. If we really want to implement change, we must start with our kids and families, and not support things that tear away at the fabric of our society..
we can all sit here and talk about how we don't like it.. on a computer.. while our kids are off at the mall shopping.. or in the other room playing their Wii... We have become a society that complains about our weaknesses.. but does very little as a collective to change it..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
