Libertarian President (Afghanistan, speech, ideology, dictators)

[pknopp]

Originally Posted by detwahDJ

Again more evasion. Instead of stating who is not the solution, just state what party is the solution.
Who are you listening to? It must be RW media since the democrats do not have control of the Senate needing 60 votes to overcome repub filibusters. Then there are always a few congressional conservative democrats as well. Repubs are in lockstep with their desire to make Obama fail at all cost, meaning filibuster anything that will make him look good to voters.

If you are a libertarian perhaps you can answer the questions previously posed.

The Senate passed Immigration reform.

[MTAtech]

Originally Posted by Bulldawg82

As opposed to a do-nothing obstructionist Senate controlled by the democrats for the past 8 years? Both of the major parties are the problem and the solution cannot be found in them.

By control, you mean have a majority but the Senate can be obstructed with a minority. Obama has dozens of appointments not being acted upon because of rules that allow one Senator to hold up an appointment.

No, it is not "both of the major parties are the problem." The Republicans have stood in the way all of Obama's terms. Ironically, when the Republicans won the House, they declared they had a mandate. What happened to the mandate the President had in 2008 and 2012?

[Bulldawg82]

Originally Posted by detwahDJ

Again more evasion. Instead of stating who is not the solution, just state what party is the solution.
Who are you listening to? It must be RW media since the democrats do not have control of the Senate needing 60 votes to overcome repub filibusters. Then there are always a few congressional conservative democrats as well. Repubs are in lockstep with their desire to make Obama fail at all cost, meaning filibuster anything that will make him look good to voters.

If you are a libertarian perhaps you can answer the questions previously posed.

No evasion going on here. The Congress has passed bills only to have the Senate kill it and the other way around. Both are the problem and their main goal is to obstruct the other so as to further their party. Their party comes first. I don't listen to RW media, but I don't listen to LW either. I hear what they have to say and I use critical thinking. The democrats have not had a majority in the senate, but they have controlled it for the last 8 years. As for the party I associate with: Libertarian. I am socially liberal but fiscally conservative. As for your thoughts on how naive we are and your sweeping conclusions that we are against government - well, you are using the classical fallacy of pointing out an extreme (and using the definition of an anarchist) to paint us all in that color. We do believe in government and we do believe in regulations and preventative measures by governments. We do believe in laws as well. But, we also believe in social institutions and responsibilities that have slowly been replaced and killed by government intrusion. We believe that government - however necessary - needs to strike the right balance between running the country efficiently and allowing it's citizens the ability to be self-determinate within that context. We do not believe in the type of government we have become. We have become the very empire that we rebelled against and now operate as those that were supposed to be our enemies in the cold war (NSA). We have lost our way and we have done so because both parties are corrupt and owned by the same people. This is why - when push comes to shove - they do the exact same things. We need a breath of fresh air in DC. I don't care if people vote Green or Libertarian - but a vote for either one of the same worthless parties is tantamount to doing what Einstein defines as madness ("Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results"). They have proven themselves inadequate for the job.

[Bulldawg82]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

By control, you mean have a majority but the Senate can be obstructed with a minority. Obama has dozens of appointments not being acted upon because of rules that allow one Senator to hold up an appointment.

No, it is not "both of the major parties are the problem." The Republicans have stood in the way all of Obama's terms. Ironically, when the Republicans won the House, they declared they had a mandate. What happened to the mandate the President had in 2008 and 2012?

They can be obstructed, but their majority couldn't even get their own things passed and certainly not all republicans towed the line either. In any case, the Democrats do the same things you accuse the Republicans of. The point is, we have tried, and tried, and tried, and tried ad nauseum both of these parties and they have failed each time. Time has come to try something new and if it doesn't work - then we vote them out with not being any worse than before.

[detwahDJ]

Originally Posted by Bulldawg82

No evasion going on here. The Congress has passed bills only to have the Senate kill it and the other way around. Both are the problem and their main goal is to obstruct the other so as to further their party. Their party comes first. a) I don't listen to RW media, but I don't listen to LW either. I hear what they have to say and I use critical thinking. b) The democrats have not had a majority in the senate, but they have controlled it for the last 8 years. As for the party I associate with: Libertarian. I am socially liberal but fiscally conservative. As for your thoughts on how naive we are and your sweeping conclusions that we are against government - well, you are using the classical fallacy of pointing out an extreme (and using the definition of an anarchist) to paint us all in that color. c) We do believe in government and we do believe in regulations and preventative measures by governments. We do believe in laws as well. But, we also believe in social institutions and responsibilities that have slowly been replaced and killed by government intrusion. We believe that government - however necessary - needs to strike the right balance between running the country efficiently and allowing it's citizens the ability to be self-determinate within that context. We do not believe in the type of government we have become. We have become the very empire that we rebelled against and now operate as those that were supposed to be our enemies in the cold war (NSA). We have lost our way and we have done so because both parties are corrupt and owned by the same people. This is why - when push comes to shove - they do the exact same things. We need a breath of fresh air in DC. I don't care if people vote Green or Libertarian - but a vote for either one of the same worthless parties is tantamount to doing what Einstein defines as madness ("Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results"). They have proven themselves inadequate for the job.

a) Most everything you and other "libertarians" say come right off the Fox script.
b) The democrats do have a majority in the senate - today 53 seats and previously 51 seats.
Again, where do you get your information? They don't have control because they can't overcome republican filibusters. You know about the filibuster rules do you not?
c) Then why can you not answer easy questions about privatization? Why do libertarians say that the "free market" is over-regulated? Also why don't you realize how vague this statement is? Politicians and con men use such innuendo in their sell jobs.
Here is the outline of the party's goals.
"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others."
You don't see how vague and full of holes this is? It sounds a lot like the Ayn Rand "Virtue of Selfishness" - as in "we don't have a society, but a nation of individuals with zero responsibility to each other, and if left to their own devices, the strong will survive, the weak will die off, and the "cream" will rise to the top".
People have a multitude of "values" and many ain't so pretty - yet they must all be accommodated? Who decides not to let an infant die because of the family's religious "values"?? No one should ever be "forced" by govt to benefit others??

[Bulldawg82]

Originally Posted by detwahDJ

a) Most everything you and other "libertarians" say come right off the Fox script.
b) The democrats do have a majority in the senate - today 53 seats and previously 51 seats.
Again, where do you get your information? They don't have control because they can't overcome republican filibusters. You know about the filibuster rules do you not?
c) Then why can you not answer easy questions about privatization? Why do libertarians say that the "free market" is over-regulated? Also why don't you realize how vague this statement is? Politicians and con men use such innuendo in their sell jobs.
Here is the outline of the party's goals.
"As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others."
You don't see how vague and full of holes this is? It sounds a lot like the Ayn Rand "Virtue of Selfishness" - as in "we don't have a society, but a nation of individuals with zero responsibility to each other, and if left to their own devices, the strong will survive, the weak will die off, and the "cream" will rise to the top".
People have a multitude of "values" and many ain't so pretty - yet they must all be accommodated? Who decides not to let an infant die because of the family's religious "values"?? No one should ever be "forced" by govt to benefit others??

BRAVO!!!! You've done it! You have figured us all out! You even know that we get our talking points from Fox!!! Wow! You are the pride and joy of the Democratic Party!!! You are most excellent, sir!!!! Congratulations . . . you are officially part of the problem. If you want your stale old and already answered questions to your points, then just dig back is some old threads - your questions have been answered by several of us ad nauseum. You aren't listening, so don't bother.

[MTAtech]

I don't see how the policies of Libertarians are different for Republicans. They both it seems to call for lower tax rates on the wealthy, tight monetary policy, and elimination of regulations -- with some popularism thrown in for good measure -- like demonizing the poor as moochers. Oh, the GOP does that too. But why should regular folk vote for people who will make their lives worse in favor of the plutocrats?

[detwahDJ]

Originally Posted by Bulldawg82

BRAVO!!!! You've done it! You have figured us all out! You even know that we get our talking points from Fox!!! Wow! You are the pride and joy of the Democratic Party!!! You are most excellent, sir!!!! Congratulations . . . you are officially part of the problem. If you want your stale old and already answered questions to your points, then just dig back is some old threads - your questions have been answered by several of us ad nauseum. You aren't listening, so don't bother.

My questions about privatization have never been answered, nowhere near "ad nauseam" - not one single comment, apparently because you cannot or will not address it - yet it is important to Americans. That question is consistently dodged in media interviews by all libertarian representatives- so why?? You think people might not like the answer?
Yeah I am listening, and hearing nothing. Your response is a hissy fit and nothing more - typical when the RW chooses to evade.
Ron Paul speeches sound good to everyone. The Libertarian platform sound noble on the surface, but the devil is in the details - which are never forthcoming. An ideology is not a plan.

[Bulldawg82]

Originally Posted by MTAtech

I don't see how the policies of Libertarians are different for Republicans. They both it seems to call for lower tax rates on the wealthy, tight monetary policy, and elimination of regulations -- with some popularism thrown in for good measure -- like demonizing the poor as moochers. Oh, the GOP does that too. But why should regular folk vote for people who will make their lives worse in favor of the plutocrats?

Many of the Republican fiscal views have aspects that are derived from Libertarian thinking, but not approached in the same manner (but some are). Taxes - depending on which Libertarian you talk to will want either no income tax, a flat tax, or a scaled back progressive tax scale (although this one held by very very few). We may agree on some regulations that need to be dropped, But those are really the only things that we have in common with republicans. We differ greatly on Foreign policy, the military, and nearly all the social issues.
As far as wanting tax breaks for the rich, that is a matter of spin. Some just don't feel that is fair - rather a flat tax across the board. That way the rich still pay more as their 10% (or whatever percent) is still far more money than my 10%. This also works with the consumer tax (along with no income tax) in that the rich buy far more quantity and pricey things, so they will pay far more there as well. But, this is not realistic unless we scale back the government & military that have bloated themselves on the backs of the citizens. Any one of our points will not work by themselves, but need to be done one by one, in order for things to go back to a simpler form of government and foreign policy. Not different from scaling back one's lifestyle. Just like the other parties, you will find a spectrum of what is called Libertarian. The main thing that separates us from the two main parties is that we acknowledge that the two parties have failed the country and look out for themselves (and how they can make the other stumble) first. It is time for a change and we need to explore the possibilities and debate them instead of outright dismissing them or labeling them as something they are not - cuz that's the crap the two parties do in order to demonize and is part of why we are failing.

[Bulldawg82]

Originally Posted by detwahDJ

My questions about privatization have never been answered, nowhere near "ad nauseam" - not one single comment, apparently because you cannot or will not address it - yet it is important to Americans. That question is consistently dodged in media interviews by all libertarian representatives- so why?? You think people might not like the answer?
Yeah I am listening, and hearing nothing. Your response is a hissy fit and nothing more - typical when the RW chooses to evade.
Ron Paul speeches sound good to everyone. The Libertarian platform sound noble on the surface, but the devil is in the details - which are never forthcoming. An ideology is not a plan.

I have no interest in debating a blunt instrument. Your questions have been answered so do a search and look through the forums. If you really are interested in listening, then you can read the responses to those who post with just a bit more decorum and class in how they ask their questions.