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We don't need to try to propose amendments to the constitution that will never get passed. We need to just propose the writing of a new constitution, period. To believe you are going to actually pass liberty amendments, is delusional. It would require 3/4ths of the states to agree to them. Not going to happen.
The problem is that, liberty amendments are partisan. And you necessarily place half the country against the other half of the country. Because the more liberal states don't receive any tangible benefits from the drafting of these liberty amendments. So they simply aren't going to support them.
You have to propose something that could receive be perceived as being beneficial to all parties. And thus you have to go into it by stating that. The Supreme Court is having a difficult time even understanding what the constitution says. Where each and every year, important votes on things like gun rights, and healthcare. Are being split 5-4 in a Supreme Court which is necessarily biased based on whichever party appointed them. And that, that kind of a system does not allow any real protection of our rights.
Thus, if we want to settle what the constitution actually means for us, once and for all. We should just draft a new constitution, and make sure it codifies and explains what the role of government should be for all of us.
If you did it that way. Any American could look at the drafting of a new constitution as an opportunity to have his voice heard, and to be able to reshape the country into what they believe it should be.
We don't need to try to propose amendments to the constitution that will never get passed. We need to just propose the writing of a new constitution, period. To believe you are going to actually pass liberty amendments, is delusional. It would require 3/4ths of the states to agree to them. Not going to happen.
Even Levin agrees his proposed amendments are not what would come out of an Article V Convention.
It also may be true that good amendments could never be ratified.
According to historical precedent AND Article V, if a convention were called, delegates would propose amendments. If a majority of state delegations agreed to the proposals they would be put out for ratification.
It would be hard to get good amendments ratified. No doubt. Seventy-five or seventy-six legislatures would have to vote yes at minimum.
There is little doubt our nation is cracking at the seams as a result of federal overreach, spending and borrowing. Anybody who lived through the recent housing crash should understand how fast an economic crisis can develop and should be able to understand when that debt crash hits the US there is nobody to bail out the nation.
An Article V may not work. The revolution was on shaky ground as well. Should they have just skipped it because it was hard?
If that crash hits as things are now there will not be a rewrite of the constitution. There won't be a constitution. There will be martial law, demanded by people unable to feed themselves or their children. Don't think it won't be you. You've never seen your child a week without food.
The moment the leftist crowd has that kind of control, they will never give it up.
Orwell once said something like, too many play with fire without realizing fire is hot.
That may sound partisan, but all I want is left alone. I don't want handouts. I don't want my kids sent off to wars I don't support for political reasons I find questionable. I don't want people spying on my actions without even the most basic suspicions to support their intrusiveness.
All I want is to be left alone. It is the left that won't leave me alone.
The problem is that, liberty amendments are partisan. And you necessarily place half the country against the other half of the country. Because the more liberal states don't receive any tangible benefits from the drafting of these liberty amendments. So they simply aren't going to support them.
You have to propose something that could receive be perceived as being beneficial to all parties. And thus you have to go into it by stating that. The Supreme Court is having a difficult time even understanding what the constitution says. Where each and every year, important votes on things like gun rights, and healthcare. Are being split 5-4 in a Supreme Court which is necessarily biased based on whichever party appointed them. And that, that kind of a system does not allow any real protection of our rights.
Thus, if we want to settle what the constitution actually means for us, once and for all. We should just draft a new constitution, and make sure it codifies and explains what the role of government should be for all of us.
If you did it that way. Any American could look at the drafting of a new constitution as an opportunity to have his voice heard, and to be able to reshape the country into what they believe it should be.
You don't address that the US was formed by independent states.
And when that didn't work, we wrote the Constitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoguePolitics
When did they giove that up?
1787.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoguePolitics
The 10th says emphatically never.
Oh?
Here's the 10th Amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
I see no mention of "independent states," emphatic or otherwise.
If California whats to be the big man on the block why don't they just leave? They can be the block. None of us would miss her.
It's not in the DNA of liberals to leave. Their modus operandi is devour, control, dominate, mandate to act against your will and conscious. They have never left anybody alone. It is principally a no-no for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
We need to just propose the writing of a new constitution, period.
Socialists / Marxists, which most of the left-wing has become nowadays, would never want any constitution right now. The country is being fundamentally transformed by them. They make laws as the they go, write more regulations as they go. Transformation is in flux right now for them.
When they are done, sure, they will write a constitution, which it won't be worth the paper is written on, because they will rule as they see fit. As a form of dictatorship, that is how it is always done in Socialism; never otherwise.
Article V is not a rewriting of a constitution. It is simply amendments. And amendments are too difficult to pass. Because the requirements to pass an amendment is far too demanding.
The original constitution convention in 1787 wasn't originally intended to write a new constitution. It was actually proposed to only make amendments to the Articles of Confederation. But they realized soon after the convention began, that the Articles needed to be scrapped and totally rewritten.
As for what would happen in a collapse. There won't be martial law. There won't be starving children. Thats sort of ridiculous.
This country produces far more than enough food to feed ourselves. And the relative cost of basic food items would actually drop like a rock if there was a crash.
What would actually happen in a crash. Is the value of real estate would plummet like a rock. People will loses their homes by the millions. But they aren't going to end up homeless. They'll just live with family members, and do things like move out to the country and grow backyard gardens to offset their lower incomes.
The credit of the United States would tank like a rock. The US dollar would tank like a rock. And the relative price of certain commodities(like oil) would go up dramatically. Without credit, the US government could not borrow endlessly. And the US government may no longer even be able to function. Causing widespread government layoffs of workers.
And while this might sound "bad". And in a sense it is bad. It is only a short-term bad. If those government workers are providing a service that people want(IE, the post office, mass transit, road construction, welfare/charity), then private companies will start up to fill the gap, and rehire those workers. Housing will most likely become far more affordable. Since it will no longer be subsidized by the government and easy-lending practices of the Federal Reserve. And even if oil prices went up, you would see a shift towards more fuel efficient cars. Thus, none of this is a real problem. And would probably be for the best anyway.
With that said. I'm actually hoping that the convention starts. And people realize that the constitution is total crap, and needs to be completely rewritten. And through trying to rewrite it, and trying to make deals with other states. People will realize that they don't really like each other that much. And start wondering why they are in the same country with each other.
I mean seriously, do you think people from Seattle like us Okies as much as they like Canadians? Especially those from Vancouver? Why does Seattle want to remain in the same country with Oklahoma, instead of joining up with British Columbia? I say, go. I won't try to stop you.
And when that didn't work, we wrote the Constitution.
1787.
Oh?
Here's the 10th Amendment:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
I see no mention of "independent states," emphatic or otherwise.
Actually didn't work is not true. The Articles of Confederation were used by a collection of independent states as a framework government to beat the most powerful nation on earth at the time. Pretty decent track record really.
BUT they thought they could do better, so they tried.
We can look at the leftwing mess we have now and easily and accurately guess we can fix it.
First thing is to remove the progressive amendments. 16th and 17th. By themselves that might be enough. Although the progressive 14th clearly creates serious problems as it turns the entire constitution from a restraint on federal tyranny into a weapon of federal tyrants.
Doesn't matter if you see "independent states." At the time the word state included that in the definition. You also don't see mention of the word vassal or vassalage which would have been used to describe the current relationship.
And btw,
From the treaty of Paris 1783: Article 1:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.
Actually didn't work is not true. The Articles of Confederation were used by a collection of independent states as a framework government to beat the most powerful nation on earth at the time. Pretty decent track record really.
BUT they thought they could do better, so they tried.
We can look at the leftwing mess we have now and easily and accurately guess we can fix it.
First thing is to remove the progressive amendments. 16th and 17th. By themselves that might be enough. Although the progressive 14th clearly creates serious problems as it turns the entire constitution from a restraint on federal tyranny into a weapon of federal tyrants.
Doesn't matter if you see "independent states." At the time the word state included that in the definition. You also don't see mention of the word vassal or vassalage which would have been used to describe the current relationship.
And btw,
From the treaty of Paris 1783: Article 1:
His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.
So you claim the sovereign states were created by the English King?
Would that not mean the English King can return them to colonial status?
You really think the US exists on the patronage of the British King?
Actually I find it somewhat incomprehensible that any American would consider the Treaty of Paris relevant.
You shouold look into the cannibalism that occurred during the great depression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz
Article V is not a rewriting of a constitution. It is simply amendments. And amendments are too difficult to pass. Because the requirements to pass an amendment is far too demanding.
The original constitution convention in 1787 wasn't originally intended to write a new constitution. It was actually proposed to only make amendments to the Articles of Confederation. But they realized soon after the convention began, that the Articles needed to be scrapped and totally rewritten.
As for what would happen in a collapse. There won't be martial law. There won't be starving children. Thats sort of ridiculous.
This country produces far more than enough food to feed ourselves. And the relative cost of basic food items would actually drop like a rock if there was a crash.
What would actually happen in a crash. Is the value of real estate would plummet like a rock. People will loses their homes by the millions. But they aren't going to end up homeless. They'll just live with family members, and do things like move out to the country and grow backyard gardens to offset their lower incomes.
The credit of the United States would tank like a rock. The US dollar would tank like a rock. And the relative price of certain commodities(like oil) would go up dramatically. Without credit, the US government could not borrow endlessly. And the US government may no longer even be able to function. Causing widespread government layoffs of workers.
And while this might sound "bad". And in a sense it is bad. It is only a short-term bad. If those government workers are providing a service that people want(IE, the post office, mass transit, road construction, welfare/charity), then private companies will start up to fill the gap, and rehire those workers. Housing will most likely become far more affordable. Since it will no longer be subsidized by the government and easy-lending practices of the Federal Reserve. And even if oil prices went up, you would see a shift towards more fuel efficient cars. Thus, none of this is a real problem. And would probably be for the best anyway.
With that said. I'm actually hoping that the convention starts. And people realize that the constitution is total crap, and needs to be completely rewritten. And through trying to rewrite it, and trying to make deals with other states. People will realize that they don't really like each other that much. And start wondering why they are in the same country with each other.
I mean seriously, do you think people from Seattle like us Okies as much as they like Canadians? Especially those from Vancouver? Why does Seattle want to remain in the same country with Oklahoma, instead of joining up with British Columbia? I say, go. I won't try to stop you.
Leftwing utopias always sound good. Never works out that way. Do we grow enough food? sure. Do we maintain an infrastructure to get it were people are?
Well, there's your problem. Trucks won't roll without permits and payments and maybe not if a region hasn't shown the proper deference.
All those generous, loving leftwing dictators in other countries immediate move to control food. And then use it as a weapon. Want your child to eat, make sure you are on the right side of the political powers that be. Was there a real food shortage in Soviet Russia when Stalin butchered the kuluks? NO. Did the people still get behind him in order to eat. You betcha. You either don't know who you are dealing with, remember the left already murders over 1 million in this country every year (they don't have a conscience), or you are hopelessly naive.
I assume from your writings it is the hopelessly naive. Anarchist where everybody will live in peace and love if only we could all stand on one foot at the same time. History is filled with butchers waiting to come in and take control.
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You shouold look into the cannibalism that occurred during the great depression.
