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"ADF's goal once again this season is to inform, educate, and help protect the rights of the 95% of Americans who celebrate Christmas," ADF President Alan Sears explained.
The goal of the Alliance Defense Fund in every season is to replace the laws of Man with the laws of God. Its founders included such notable icons of relgious and social tolerance as James Dobson, James Kennedy, and Donald Wildmon...
The difference between those examples and Christmas is purpose. People don't use days of the week to celebrate a spiritual meaning. People don't read shakespeare to gather some religious meaning. In fact, none of the Shakespeare I've read has a central theme which is religious.
Christmas is celebrated in many ways and for many reasons. Winter solstice; evergreen as symbol of eternal life; yule log and holly likewise. People love the season for many reasons. If you don't find any Christian elements in Shakespeare, you haven't been reading very closely.
However, Christmas may be secular and all-inclusive for some, but for most, it is still a religious holiday. The central meaning of Christmas for many people who celebrate it is to remember the birth of Christ (regardless of how inaccurate the date may be, technically).
"Many" isn't "everyone." Their choice need not be yours. Many people love Howard Stern. I think he's a vulgar con-man. So I ignore him.
Another difference is when mentioning fine art such as Michelangelo's. I've been to the Sistine Chapel and it's beautiful, but I wouldn't consider it to be a central event in society in the US. If one is studying art history, one is studying his works for historical value, not religious. To me, that's like saying we can't talk about Galileo's research because he was a Christian. However, Christmas has, in my mind, a religious central theme which can't be avoided. And since it's so widespread in the US and no one can escape it, though we can choose not to look at Michelangelo's work, it's not very equal to endorse Christmas in locations where children are obligated to be.
I never argued that Michelangelo was a "central event in society in the US" (whatever you mean by that). I simply pointed out that much traditional, representative art is inspired by Christianity, and contains deeply Christian themes. To deny our children access to these aesthetic masterpieces because of their religious context constitutes, to my mind, a denial to them of a major educational and cultural experience. The same is true of Christmas.
First you ask what Santa Claus has got to do with religion, then you switch channels and claim that he's in fact got plenty to do with religion. There is a difference between nuance and thinking that is so ungrounded as to become indecipherable.
To your mind. Again, I appeal to your sense of ambiguity and ask if the folks living in La Ciudad de la Nuestra Senora de los Angeles need to change their city's name before they all start speaking in tongues or something.
Always looking to take the high road, aren't we? You have claimed that Christmas is a secular holiday, and you have claimed that Christmas is a religious holiday. I guess new Shimmer really is both a dessert topping AND a floor wax...
"Christmas" and "Shimmer" are both words. That you fear them, and that they have such power over you, says a lot about you.
My bad. I assumed that you would understand the reference.
Back at you.
Tell that to more of your Republican friends. Meanwhile, members of Congress and their staffs have full calendars whether the House and Senate are in session or not. Your resort to personal attack upon them suggests that any hypothetical store of substantive comment has been exhausted.
LOL. Oh, that's right. I had forgotten that they were above criticism.
It's got nothing to do with philosophy. It's got to do with the fact, routinely ignored by whiners, that after having 'extorted' that 20% or whatever share of 'hard-earned dollars' from society, the government turns right around the very next second and gives all of those dollars right back. And if you're Bush, quite a few more. And since you don't actually live in flyover land, what do you think would happen in your actual neck of the woods if the government were to start ignoring Boeing? No more Defense contracts. No more ExIm underwriting for foreign sales. Nothing. How would your all's local economy be making out then? Might have to cut back on some of those trips north to enjoy a Molson Old Style Pilsner or two, eh? Maybe even have to save a buck or two by leaving all those outdoor Holiday Lights turned off. Self-made men being exploited by a repressive government, my tookus. Trough-feeders, the lot of 'em.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, work for the government. Those who can't, and work for the gov, and still have a lot of gall, criticize the folks who pay their salaries. Classy.
No, not in other words. In the words I wrote. Which you've chosen to ignore. But since you've also chosen to raise the quite unrelated matter of hypocrisy, what's your take on all these right-wingers who stay home from work on Presidents Day? Don't they realize that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were Presidents? That's great...they rail against them 364 days a year, then gladly take one off to honor Bubba and The Peanut Farmer. Sheesh!!!
Otherwise, you need to reconcile yourself with the fact that the state at all levels is constrained by the Establishment Clause, and that it is those few words themselves that have allowed this country to become a safe home for the practitioners of well over a thousand different faiths. Now, sometimes I myself in the wee hours of the morning might wish that weren't the case. For if it weren't, the rest of us would be free to brand all these replace the laws of man with the laws of God sects as the subversive organizations that they are and take meaningful collective actions against them. But since these groups do have the Establishment Clause to hide their America-hating behind, I guess the rest of us will have to be content in exercising the rights we do have in speech and in print to expose the traitors and charlatans in the marketplace of ideas. In the end, the good ideas do drive out the bad. Right-wing religion and politics have been in ascendancy now for thirty years. The clock is starting to run out. These ideas will soon vanish from the leaves of times...as is their due...
The establishment clause says one thing: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." All of your late-night fulminations, and the hatred that seeps out from beneath some rhetorical rock when you deign to consider the views of Americans who disagree with you, mean nothing when confronted with that fact. That some people use the First Amendment to attempt to force our country into a bloodless and spiritually destitute Peoples Republic of Politics, in which the Christmas message of peace and brotherhood to all mankind is eschwed in the interest of propogating class conflcit, race-baiting, and social hatred, is the reason that this fight is only beginning to be joined. The forces of goodness and hope will eventually win out. This has nothing to do with partisan politics, but with the continuing human quest for what is true, what is good, and what is Right.
I never argued that Michelangelo was a "central event in society in the US" (whatever you mean by that). I simply pointed out that much traditional, representative art is inspired by Christianity, and contains deeply Christian themes. To deny our children access to these aesthetic masterpieces because of their religious context constitutes, to my mind, a denial to them of a major educational and cultural experience. The same is true of Christmas.
You seem to like to respond within someone else's quote, and I'm too lazy to cut and paste what you replied...but anyway, winter solstice is not celebrated as part of Christmas. Winter solstice celebrations are pagan celebrations, and I doubt that most Christians would be interested in sharing that celebration.
The point I was making about central themes is that Christmas in the USA is a central theme in December for months prior. Michelangelo is but a footnote in American society.
I didn't say there are no religious elements to Shakespeare. Please, again, read what I wrote. I said that the main themes in the Shakespeare plays I've read are not religiously centric. If they were, then why wouldn't Othello be more about the conflict between Islam and Christianity? No, we know Othello was a Moor, and that his counterparts were not. That's it. The story is not about religion, but betrayal and deception. Same goes for Hamlet, etc...
That's my point. You're comparing artistic masterpieces that don't have a Christian central purpose to Christmas which does, and that, to me, is comparing apples to oranges.
The establishment clause says one thing: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." All of your late-night fulminations, and the hatred that seeps out from beneath some rhetorical rock when you deign to consider the views of Americans who disagree with you, mean nothing when confronted with that fact. That some people use the First Amendment to attempt to force our country into a bloodless and spiritually destitute Peoples Republic of Politics, in which the Christmas message of peace and brotherhood to all mankind is eschwed in the interest of propogating class conflcit, race-baiting, and social hatred, is the reason that this fight is only beginning to be joined. The forces of goodness and hope will eventually win out. This has nothing to do with partisan politics, but with the continuing human quest for what is true, what is good, and what is Right.
For goodness' sake, it's a simple matter of common sense, too. If Christmas were purely a religious observance, only Christians would celebrate it. Yet 95 out of every 100 Americans celebrates Christmas in some fashion, even though 95% of the nation isn't Christian. To deny that is to deny the importance of a cultural event that helps bind our society together. I've mentioned this in an earlier post, but not being able to even say Christmas is just as absurd as proclaiming that you can't mention meat in the presence of vegetarians, who make up 5% of the population. I'm a vegetarian. I'm not offended. It's OK. It really is.
This is how ridiculous it's gotten. My mother-in-law was organizing the annual Christmas party at the place she works. Now, she works in a very diverse office, full of blacks, whites, and Middle Easterners, and people who are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and atheist. Despite their diverse backgrounds, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them observes a Christmas celebration. Yet my MIL's supervisor told her that under no circumstances could she call the party a Christmas party. My MIL asked, "Doesn't everyone here celebrate Christmas?" Yes, she was told. "Then who am I going to offend by calling it a Christmas party"? It didn't matter. She was told that it would be called a holiday party.
Respecting differing beliefs is one thing. This hypersensitive PC crap is another entirely. When you can't say the name of a holiday, even when everybody in your surroundings observes it in some way ... that is a really good sign that we've gone WAY too far.
Hanukkah is not a major Jewish holiday. Kwanzaa is celebrated by a small percentage of one racial group, many of whom ALSO observe Christmas. If anything, it would make sense to trot out this "holiday" nonsense in the spring, when two major religious holidays DO fall within proximity of each other -- Easter and Passover. But nobody thinks twice about mentioning Easter eggs and Easter bunnies. It would be stupid to say "holiday eggs" and "holiday bunnies" then, and it's even more stupid to substitute "Christmas" with "holiday" now, when virtually all of us -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- observe it in some way. In the attempt not to offend, the PC types are offending Christmas celebrators instead ... as if to say that something 95% of the nation observes can't be mentioned.
You seem to like to respond within someone else's quote, and I'm too lazy to cut and paste what you replied...but anyway, winter solstice is not celebrated as part of Christmas. Winter solstice celebrations are pagan celebrations, and I doubt that most Christians would be interested in sharing that celebration.
The point I was making about central themes is that Christmas in the USA is a central theme in December for months prior. Michelangelo is but a footnote in American society.
I didn't say there are no religious elements to Shakespeare. Please, again, read what I wrote. I said that the main themes in the Shakespeare plays I've read are not religiously centric. If they were, then why wouldn't Othello be more about the conflict between Islam and Christianity? No, we know Othello was a Moor, and that his counterparts were not. That's it. The story is not about religion, but betrayal and deception. Same goes for Hamlet, etc...
That's my point. You're comparing artistic masterpieces that don't have a Christian central purpose to Christmas which does, and that, to me, is comparing apples to oranges.
I'm lazy, too, but when I've been away from a topic for a few hours (or days), I like to remember the points that I'm addressing. Like you, I prefer this less restrictive format!
I agree with you that Christmas and the solstice can be thought of as separate celebrations, although there is little doubt that early Christians chose this time of year for the holiday to take advantage of existing observances. My point is that our modern Christmas, as it exists, inlcudes all of the characteristics and traidtions I mentioned earlier. It is not strictly Christian (except, of course, to Christians - -who are free to believe and observe as they wish).
Thanks for clarifying your point about Michelangelo. Perhaps I was unclear in making mine. What I mean to emphasize is that Christian themes inform many aesthetic masterpieces and cultural icons which are central to our heritage. Eliminating them because they refer to relgiion, and are thus (to some people; not me) "forbidden" by the Constitution, is not only incorrect -- it is harmful to our children's understanding of their own heritage, and an abdication of our responsibility as educators.
Again, thank you for clarifying your references to Shakespeare. I hope you can understand my perspective, which is that Shakespeare used Christian beliefs and concepts as the moral and ethical backdrop against which his characters and themes struggled and celebrated.
Example, from Hamlet:
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable, etc....
I hope you can see that my thinking about Christmas is not limited to its Christian aspects. I believe that the contemporary form of the holiday includes the other elements (trees, holly, solstice, etc.), and that it exists largely as a secular observation. I agree with you that to devout Christians, Christmas has certain specific elements which make it central to their faith. But that does not mean that other interpretations and observances are not valid to families, groups, and individuals who feel otherwise. There are metaphorical elements to the holiday which are deep and profound, and which, while spiritual (to many people), are not confiined to religious interpretations.
Christmas? I celebrate a couple of things this time of year. The first is my wedding some 39 years ago and the other is the about a month after the solstice when the longer days become noticable. Besides the stuff is much cheaper after Christmas and people like geting things in the middle of a normanly depressing January.
If anyone has attacked Christmas it is the Mammon worshipers that only care for thier own greed.
Hanukkah is not a major Jewish holiday. Kwanzaa is celebrated by a small percentage of one racial group, many of whom ALSO observe Christmas. If anything, it would make sense to trot out this "holiday" nonsense in the spring, when two major religious holidays DO fall within proximity of each other -- Easter and Passover. But nobody thinks twice about mentioning Easter eggs and Easter bunnies. It would be stupid to say "holiday eggs" and "holiday bunnies" then, and it's even more stupid to substitute "Christmas" with "holiday" now, when virtually all of us -- Christian and non-Christian alike -- observe it in some way. In the attempt not to offend, the PC types are offending Christmas celebrators instead ... as if to say that something 95% of the nation observes can't be mentioned.
It's the Christmas season. It's OK to say it.
You're right, Hanukkah isn't a major holiday for us... but at the same time, I have never celebrated Christmas, nor have ANY of my Jewish friends or family members - except my sister, who's married to a non-Jew. The only Jewish people I've met who celebrate it are either married to a goy, or live in a heavily/militant Christian area, where they feel the peer-pressure to join in. Most of us spend Dec. 24th-25th in traditional Jewish fashion, by enjoying a Chinese dinner & a movie. Speaking of which, I currently live in a mostly Chinese neighborhood, and only 2 houses on the street have Christmas stuff displayed - most are Buddhist or Taoist, and don't likely do Christmas either.
I do agree that overly sensitive PC-ness is lame, but to say we all celebrate (based on your one example) is simply not true. We might not make up a huge percentage of the country, but still deserve to be counted!
Not at all. Maybe your class could have celebrated diversity.
Meaning what? All the Jewish kids knew about Christmas, it wasn't a big secret...and we knew what their holidays were. We were at school to learn, not to be in a Benetton ad.
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Speaking of which, I currently live in a mostly Chinese neighborhood, and only 2 houses on the street have Christmas stuff displayed - most are Buddhist or Taoist, and don't likely do Christmas either.
