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Do you know how many non Christians celebrate Christmas? Many black people whom celebrate Kawanza celebrate Christmas as well. Many Jews celebrate both Hanahkua and Christmas...so what is this all about? Are they celebrating the birth of Christ or are they in it for the presents?
Now I am not going to waste anymore time on this topic, because some here have ways of just turning words around and around. So to all my fellow Christmas celebrators....MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!
Do you know how many non Christians celebrate Christmas? Many black people whom celebrate Kawanza celebrate Christmas as well. Many Jews celebrate both Hanahkua and Christmas...so what is this all about? Are they celebrating the birth of Christ or are they in it for the presents?
Well, the Jews would kinda have to be in it for the presents, since very few of them recognize Christ as the son of God.
As for the celebrants of Kwanzaa, of course many still celebrate Christmas. Kwanzaa isn't a religious holiday. It's a cultural one, and while it was originally a reaction to Christmas, an alternative for people who rejected celebrating the holiday of a dominant society that had largely screwed them over, its message was softened, and now its promoted by those who founded it as a time of celebration, not exclusion.
Christmas is a universal holiday in most Western nations. The fact that it has (among others) Christian historical origins is not the point.
Christmas is not "society", nor is there any legal obligation attached to it, either in school or elswhere. It is a synthesis of centuries of human hopes and aspirations, from a variety of cultures and religions.
I repeat: if we eliminate every cultural observation or tradition which has a religious connection or connotation, out of fear of excluding (for example) people who find Monday (Moon-day), Tuesday ("Twiga's-day", Norse), Wednesday ("Woden's-day", also Norse), ThursdaY ("Thor's-day" also Norse), Firday ("Freya's-day", Norse), Saturday ("Saturn's-day", Roman), or Sunday (self-explanatory), offensive and exclusionary because they are not Norse or Roman, much of Shakespeare (becuase it relies on Christian symbolism, plots, and language), the art of Michelangelo (all those saints and virgins), the music of Bach (gasp! "The B-minor Mass"!!!!), Native American art and ecological symbolism, and all the other rich and lovely creations inspired by the spiritual traditions of this or that culture, we might as well go back to living in caves and grooming each other's fur for bits of salt.
The difference between those examples and Christmas is purpose. People don't use days of the week to celebrate a spiritual meaning. People don't read shakespeare to gather some religious meaning. In fact, none of the Shakespeare I've read has a central theme which is religious.
However, Christmas may be secular and all-inclusive for some, but for most, it is still a religious holiday. The central meaning of Christmas for many people who celebrate it is to remember the birth of Christ (regardless of how inaccurate the date may be, technically).
Another difference is when mentioning fine art such as Michelangelo's. I've been to the Sistine Chapel and it's beautiful, but I wouldn't consider it to be a central event in society in the US. If one is studying art history, one is studying his works for historical value, not religious. To me, that's like saying we can't talk about Galileo's research because he was a Christian. However, Christmas has, in my mind, a religious central theme which can't be avoided. And since it's so widespread in the US and no one can escape it, though we can choose not to look at Michelangelo's work, it's not very equal to endorse Christmas in locations where children are obligated to be.
Have you ever considered that he may be both, depending on one's perspective? If you have a problem with saints, better be prepared to challenge quite a few city names in the US. (And here I thought your side was the suave one, which embraced ambiguity...)
First you ask what Santa Claus has got to do with religion, then you switch channels and claim that he's in fact got plenty to do with religion. There is a difference between nuance and thinking that is so ungrounded as to become indecipherable.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
I'm surprised, again, at your unwillingness to entertain both interpretations. I think the confusion on "stance" is yours (and Larry Craig's)...
Always looking to take the high road, aren't we? You have claimed that Christmas is a secular holiday, and you have claimed that Christmas is a religious holiday. I guess new Shimmer really is both a dessert topping AND a floor wax...
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
No, just the harmless hoilday symbols which the grinches find so very threatening. Though if there were a Christmas flamingo, we could expect a War on Pink, too.
My bad. I assumed that you would understand the reference.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
It depends on how you define "relax." They're certainly not doing the nation's business -- collecting graft and pursing interns are not part of Congress' job desciption
Tell that to more of your Republican friends. Meanwhile, members of Congress and their staffs have full calendars whether the House and Senate are in session or not. Your resort to personal attack upon them suggests that any hypothetical store of substantive comment has been exhausted.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
Nice philosophy. And you wonder why all us little people out here in flyover land despise the fFedGov and what it's done to our country....
It's got nothing to do with philosophy. It's got to do with the fact, routinely ignored by whiners, that after having 'extorted' that 20% or whatever share of 'hard-earned dollars' from society, the government turns right around the very next second and gives all of those dollars right back. And if you're Bush, quite a few more. And since you don't actually live in flyover land, what do you think would happen in your actual neck of the woods if the government were to start ignoring Boeing? No more Defense contracts. No more ExIm underwriting for foreign sales. Nothing. How would your all's local economy be making out then? Might have to cut back on some of those trips north to enjoy a Molson Old Style Pilsner or two, eh? Maybe even have to save a buck or two by leaving all those outdoor Holiday Lights turned off. Self-made men being exploited by a repressive government, my tookus. Trough-feeders, the lot of 'em.
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Originally Posted by Yeledaf
In other words, they'll take a holiday which would not exist without Christmas, while pretending it doesn't mean anything to them. You call that "sharp"; I call it "hypocritical".
No, not in other words. In the words I wrote. Which you've chosen to ignore. But since you've also chosen to raise the quite unrelated matter of hypocrisy, what's your take on all these right-wingers who stay home from work on Presidents Day? Don't they realize that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were Presidents? That's great...they rail against them 364 days a year, then gladly take one off to honor Bubba and The Peanut Farmer. Sheesh!!!
Otherwise, you need to reconcile yourself with the fact that the state at all levels is constrained by the Establishment Clause, and that it is those few words themselves that have allowed this country to become a safe home for the practitioners of well over a thousand different faiths. Now, sometimes I myself in the wee hours of the morning might wish that weren't the case. For if it weren't, the rest of us would be free to brand all these replace the laws of man with the laws of God sects as the subversive organizations that they are and take meaningful collective actions against them. But since these groups do have the Establishment Clause to hide their America-hating behind, I guess the rest of us will have to be content in exercising the rights we do have in speech and in print to expose the traitors and charlatans in the marketplace of ideas. In the end, the good ideas do drive out the bad. Right-wing religion and politics have been in ascendancy now for thirty years. The clock is starting to run out. These ideas will soon vanish from the leaves of times...as is their due...
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