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There is a great concern over the shrinking middle class in America, with both major factions (R & D) blaming the other for its demise. Even if the Republican's elitism is contributing to the reversion back into a neo-feudal system, the Democrat redistribution attempts have only seemed to aggravate it more.
But we must ask this: If people are free to make choices with their lives, how are we to expect an egalitarian outcome? Let's compare two opposing scenarios-- a typical public school, and military basic training.
Basic training (no I haven't been but many of my friends have) is a tightly regulated environment where the recruits are highly controlled in every minute detail of their lives. There is no free-expression and free-dress. There are no options as how one conducts themselves. Everyone must conform to detailed guidelines in order to remain in the program and avoid discharge. The disparity among the graduates is not well pronounced. Everyone who successfully completes the training has demonstrated the needed skills to high standards. No one will be starving on the base because everyone gets the same pay grade until they advance in rank. Everyone wears the same uniform so no one has fancier clothes than anyone else. Boom! Equality!
Conversely, a typical U.S. public high school is a far cry from basic training. Lockers may be checked for drugs or guns, but not to see if they're sparkly clean or if every book is in the exact place it's supposed to be. There is free dress, or even if there are uniforms, they are no where near the standards of a military uniform. A student's study habits are not micro-managed by faculty. There's not enough manpower. The teacher simply gives an assignment and grades those that are turned in. YOu get the picture. So what are the end results? A WIDE range of disparity at the end of it all. A few students may go to Harvard or Yale upon graduation and earn megabucks. Some will go to a trade school (and if they're good, earn megabucks.) Some will take unskilled jobs until they're promoted into lower management. Some will drop out and never get a diploma. Some will go to prison after graduation when they turn to crime. Some will go to prison before their senior year. Some will die of drug overdose before they graduate. Some girls will drop out, or graduate with minimum qualifying grades because they got pregnant. Point is, that single environment with its lower level of control produces a wide variety of results, and among those are future income. Boom! Inequality!
Now the purpose of the comparison is to demonstrate that when a nation grants personal liberties with minimal interference, you will get a wide variety of citizens. Some will chose to work hard and earn. Some will work smart (and less hard) and earn even more. Some will chose to live for the moment and find themselves in deep financial trouble. Some will chose self-destructive habits. Yes, it's sad but that's what happens when you have liberty. Unequal outcome!
A certain amount of it absolutely! I mean you make choice a or b...and you succeed or fail.
BUT.....as we see nowadays. Our future presidential candidates meet with the rich benefactors to get their blessing, companies organize against labor (witness the apple/micron/intel etc agreement o not poach engineers).
And more and more if you succeed or fail is less determined by your choices, and more determined by who your parents are, or who your connections are.
And those arent liberty-those are the side effects of plutocracy and a growing class. They even have a completely different set of outcomes when they go before a judge. They can commit crimes that we can't-because the resources are not sufficient to prosecute someone who is too rich.
Choose-spend 30 days in work prosecuting some rich guy, or do 30 cases of 1 day of work to nail 30 other bad guys?
So its not unequal outcomes that are a problem...its unequal choices and possibilities that we have. and its getting worse not better.
But we must ask this: If people are free to make choices with their lives, how are we to expect an egalitarian outcome?
Excellent.
Obviously, you're a Critical Thinker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar
So its not unequal outcomes that are a problem...its unequal choices and possibilities that we have.
Fail.
Building Wealth is a personal choice. One either voluntarily chooses to build Wealth, or one chooses not to build Wealth.
Two people, each with $5.
One invests $5 on scratch-off lotto tickets and gets nothing.
The other invests $5 in 5 shares of stock selling for $1.00/share.
Fast forward 30 years, the moron who blew $5 on lotto tickets has nothing and is running around with his hand out demanding that I subsidize his life-style, while the other has $75 worth of stocks.
It's not my fault that people who bought land at $200/acre 25 years ago are sitting pretty because that land is now worth $40,000/acre today.
If financial investments are too difficult to grasp, then find someone to help you or get into rental property.
If people deflated their big ego heads and swallowed a milligram of pride long enough to share an apartment with others, then they'd save enough money to put as a down-payment on a 2-family converted into a 1-family, and then covert it back into a 2 family and make money off rent.
Investing is hard work and often requires making short-term sacrifices in order to realize a long-term gain.
Person A starts with $50K, he buys a small house in a poor neighborhood. And gets a minimum wage job. After all his expenses he has some money left over, he goes to college.
Person B, he has 5K. he uses that for his rent deposit. after rent and everything else...he cant afford college...so he gets a loan.
Both are making reasonable choice, both are NOT starting from the same place. But you know that. You just have this idea that the world is a fair place, and by gosh those poor people? They got their on their own, and they DESERVE it. yup.
Investing is a LOT easier when the sacrifices you make dont involve not buying your medication you need. Or hoping that the old car you have will make it another mile....
Kinda reminds me of Romney going on about how he struggled with bills in college, and what was it....using a door as a ironing board.
Neglecting to mention the massive amount of stocks he cashed in, and how much money dad helped him with.
In the meantime the vast majority of college students DID struggle. They sacrificed food sometimes, or like me, donated plasma to pay for college books.
Theres sacrifice-I worked hard in school! And then theres Sacrifice-I worked hard in school!....and had a job.....and donated plasma to pay for my books.....and sometimes went hungry"
The problem with threads like these is that everyone will cherry pick a situation or create a scenario that will serve as evidence to support what they already believe.
Person A starts with $50K, he buys a small house in a poor neighborhood. And gets a minimum wage job. After all his expenses he has some money left over, he goes to college.
Person B, he has 5K. he uses that for his rent deposit. after rent and everything else...he cant afford college...so he gets a loan.
Both are making reasonable choice, both are NOT starting from the same place. But you know that. You just have this idea that the world is a fair place, and by gosh those poor people? They got their on their own, and they DESERVE it. yup.
Investing is a LOT easier when the sacrifices you make dont involve not buying your medication you need. Or hoping that the old car you have will make it another mile....
Kinda reminds me of Romney going on about how he struggled with bills in college, and what was it....using a door as a ironing board.
Neglecting to mention the massive amount of stocks he cashed in, and how much money dad helped him with.
In the meantime the vast majority of college students DID struggle. They sacrificed food sometimes, or like me, donated plasma to pay for college books.
Theres sacrifice-I worked hard in school! And then theres Sacrifice-I worked hard in school!....and had a job.....and donated plasma to pay for my books.....and sometimes went hungry"
I'm sorry - but I don't think you give people enough credit. You think we can't make it on our own.
If the economy were better, there would be MORE choices (isn't the left for 'choice'?). Opportunities!!
The left will take the brakes off sooner or later, right? I know they hate business and 'evil' corporations, but I've not heard the spotted owl is recruiting for employees quite yet.
(And, don't be troubled about Romney, he'll be fine!! ) Don't worry, be happy.
------------------
IMO, at the end of the day, LIBERTY is worth the gamble - on equality (of outcome) - any day!!
OP, you have drawn some good parallels, but you are not using equal groups for comparison.
The Military doesn't take everyone, only volunteers, and those that don't wash out in boot camp are pretty much the cream of the crop with the discipline, drive and ability to do the job and to work in a very stressful environment and perform at higher levels than the average person could.
The physical and mental demands although regimented, require not so much groupthink as a dedication to the team and the mission.
High school takes everyone, no qualifications, no entrance exams, no minimum requirements for physical or mental abilities.
If you are going to compare equally, you should look at private vs. public schools.
Public schools have no real standards to attend, private schools usually require a specific grade point average as well as discipline, but both are far less regimented than the military because no high school, (with the exception of military prep schools), even if there is a uniform requirement, it isn't nearly as stringent as the military, open campus vs. closed campus, extra curricular activities, required course work, with the exception of boarding schools, everybody goes home at night.
High schools also don't require you to pass every course with a specific grade point average, what you get out of it is completely dependent on what you put into it. If you are a screw up, it shows, if you apply yourself, it also shows.
Those that have cultivated good study habits, are willing to extend the effort to excel, will usually do well in school and later in life no matter how much money their family has.
Those that prefer to party or just scrape by will probably continue on that pattern unless they wake up and take advantage of the opportunities that exist and are willing to work for a better life.
Liberty equals Personal Responsibility. It is completely dependent on the individual and their abilities and personal drive that determines how they do through life.
Regimentation can impose discipline for a specific situation, but it falls away when the situation changes unless the individual chooses to maintain that discipline.
Having to take charge of your own life, make your own decisions and live with the consequences are hard. Following what someone tells you to do is easy, so those that want to take the path of least resistance are most open to follow what someone else says instead of making their own way.
Liberty only allows your individual personality to shine through, for better or worse.
Individual responsibility isn't for everyone, so you have a stratification of those that excel, those that make do, and those that are successful, but not exceptional.
It's all up to that specific person which path they choose. Liberty just allows them to make that choice.
Liberty doesn't guarantee equal outcome, only equal opportunity.
What you do with that opportunity is your individual choice.
The problem with threads like these is that everyone will cherry pick a situation or create a scenario that will serve as evidence to support what they already believe.
This dartboard may be a bit too big - but that helps me hit it!!
Honestly, I think the question has merit. I think equality (of outcome) and liberty are pretty much, mutuallyexclusive.
So, IMO, the answer to the question is YES, and I'm glad about it.
The government should mandate that all people be paid the same. From the President to the toliet bowl scrubber. We are equal in the eyes of God, we should be equal in the eyes of each other. One for all, all for one. From him that makes too much, take and give to him that makes too little....
This dartboard may be a bit too big - but that helps me hit it!!
Honestly, I think the question has merit. I think equality (of outcome) and liberty are pretty much, mutuallyexclusive.
So, IMO, the answer to the question is YES, and I'm glad about it.
who wants equality of outcome? No really. Despite many assumptions the vast majority don't want equality of outcome, we want equality of opportunity!
Yes the left does want a floor beyond which people cannot fall. That doesnt mean they dont want people who make bad choices to fall. They just want them to smack a floor, and not fall off a cliff.
That being said...I would disagree. liberty has nothing to do with the equality of outcome, it has to do with freedoms being oppressed by authorities.
Ohhh wait...thats only for the rich that can do almost anything and have the attorneys to get away with it.....
And you're glad about that?
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I know they hate business and 'evil' corporations, but I've not heard the spotted owl is recruiting for employees quite yet. 
) Don't worry, be happy. 
