Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes I agree with Mountains, Russia should be doing more to encourage and help with the settlement of ethnic Russians from the former Soviet republics. A lot of ethnic Russians have left places like Uzbekistan, Latvia, and Lithuania and returned to Russia. They should do the same with the ethnic Russians in Ukraine. Ukraine should also encourage them to leave as well.
As for Crimea, its the Soviet Communist Kruschev who gave it to Ukraine so the Russians there should be hating on the Soviet government yet so many of them want to recreate the Soviet Union. They are declaring "peoples republics" in the areas they are trying to break away from Ukraine.
Bring whom back to Russia? Those ethnic Russians have been living on this land for many, many generations, they're were neither born or ever lived in Russia. This land was never inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians so deporting ethnic Russians from eastern Ukraine would be like deporting all Quebecois back to France. Idiotic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CravingMountains
I don't think Ukraine should deport them and I definitely do not think Russia should take those lands away.
I think the best solution would be for Russia to encourage immigration of these ethnic Russians back to Russia. In Ukraines 2001 census there were 8 million Russians living in The Ukraine. A million of them are now gone with the loss of Crimea. That number has no doubt fallen further as Russia has increased immigration a lot in the past 8 years and was favoring ethnic Russians from its former colonies. Coupled with the fact that the Russian majority areas of Ukraine have the lowest birth rates and the highest death rates there could be as few as 4 million Russians left in the Ukraine.
Russia just needs to set up a large scale immigration system to bring them back to Russia. Let in 400,000 a year (a very modest number given Russia's large population) and then there will be no more Russians in Ukraine. If the two people can't get along then this is the best solution to me.
I'm simply disgusted by the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine who did their illegal referendum in Crimea and now want to separate two other regions from Ukraine. This is akin to illegal aliens and anchor babies attempting a referendum to rejoin Texas and California with Mexico.
The ethnic Russians have no business living in Ukraine in the first place. Most of them moved there during the Soviet days when the government in Moscow wanted to overwhelm and displace the Ukrainian people from their native lands to consolidate control in the region.
Bring whom back to Russia? Those ethnic Russians have been living on this land for many, many generations, they're were neither born or ever lived in Russia. This land was never inhabited by ethnic Ukrainians so deporting ethnic Russians from eastern Ukraine would be like deporting all Quebecois back to France. Idiotic.
That is not true. Ethnic Ukrainians held majority in all the areas going eastward to the Caucasus until the 1930s when Stalin subjected 6 million Ukrainians to genocide during the Holodomar.
No, this is akin to deporting Tejanos from Texas. The people that are now called "ethnic Russians" have been living in eastern Ukraine for generations, long before there was a soviet republic called Ukraine, just like Tejanos in what's is called now Texas. Cultured mixed in the region all the time. You are proposing real-life ethnic cleansing, Comrade. Not nice. Not nice.
Well, it's the same Stalin did. It would only be retaliation.
What seems to be going over all of your heads is the fact that national borders are completely arbitrary to begin with. And they have always been completely arbitrary, and they will always be completely arbitrary.
The borders of the United States have changed as Americans conquered and annexed territory from native tribes and foreign governments. Americans have no intrinsic right to any land anywhere in the entire world. Unless of course you subscribe to the doctrine that "might makes right".
If you were to look at a political map of Europe over time, the entire idea of a "nation" is completely new. And in no nation on Earth are there only a single kind of people. That has never been the case and most likely will never be the case.
A quick look at New York City shows people from around the world, and many of them don't really consider themselves to be Americans. They just live here. Just like the Mexican-Americans who fly the Mexican flag. They just live here.
But what is here anyway? What is America? Can you say with certainty that America will even exist 100 years from now? For that matter, had the north not won the Civil War, would there even be an America today?
Look, the truth is, there is no such thing as Ukraine, there is no such thing as Russia, there is no such thing as America. They are artificial entities that were created by men. At any time all of the nations of Earth could crumble apart, and someday probably will. Or maybe they will all unite together, it is impossible to know.
What you need to understand is that all that really exists in this world are people. Nations exist for the benefit of the people. The people don't exist for the benefit of the state.
If the people anywhere in the world, who speak any language, want to create a new nation, then they can follow that course. It doesn't necessarily mean they will be successful. And it doesn't mean other people around the world will support them. But if a nation exists for the benefit of the people, and only through the consent of the governed, then if anyone, anywhere in the world believes that their government does not represent them and they no longer give their consent to be governed, then for what good does it do to force them to remain part of that nation?
The question is, why do you even care if Eastern Ukraine wants to be independent from the rest of Ukraine? Why do they have to have permission from the central government to break away? Why do you care if there is suddenly an "independent Republic of Donestsk" on your world map? Why must they be stopped at all costs? Why do you believe that Ukraine, whose borders are completely artificial to begin with, where are a third of the population isn't even Ukrainian, somehow has a perpetual right to all of the land and people within those artificial borders?
While it is true that the people in Eastern Ukraine who want to secede are largely Russians. So yeah, you can create some hypothetical situation where Ukraine kicks out all of the Russians. But what if the Russians in Ukraine were some other ethnic group with no "homeland"(IE the Jews in Nazi Germany) but who wanted independence. Then what? Where are you going to kick them out to?
Obviously "kicking people out" is a really stupid idea. Of course, if they aren't allowed to secede, and thus they are ruled over by people they don't consent to be governed by, aren't they then nothing but conquered people?
There is a reason democracy and nationalism go hand-in-hand. Democracy only works where everyone is similar and agree on most things. It does not work where there are huge and fundamental differences of opinion. Nations with people who disagree on most things are likely to end up in a Civil War.
Nationalism is a system where people who are similar to each other get annoyed by people who are less similar, and decide to separate themselves from them. Nationalism only functions with conformity to some sort of central national values. So within nationalism there is always a strong push for "assimilation". Usually with public schools or national media which "indoctrinates" you into how to be a "citizen".
If you could be impartial for a minute and just stand back and actually look at the big picture. You'll realize that nations are garbage. And the reason we seem to be so terrified that some section of eastern Ukraine wants independence, is because we realize how fragile our own nation is. I mean, what is America anyway?
The truth is, if you remove government indoctrination and assimilation, America is nothing but a union of convenience. The moment people no longer see a benefit to our union, there will be no union. You are not an American, you are just a person. A person who probably disagrees with most of what your government is doing. You just go along with it because you were taught all your life that you have no other choice than to just go along with it.
The truth is the present so called Ukraine government was put in by a revolt same as in Crimea now. I really don't see a difference; other than we don't like the Russians.
The ethnic Russians have no business living in Ukraine in the first place. Most of them moved there during the Soviet days when the government in Moscow wanted to overwhelm and displace the Ukrainian people from their native lands to consolidate control in the region.
My wife is an ethnic Russian whose family lives in Ukraine. Most were moved there, and not always by choice. Her view, and that of my in-laws still there, is that it's only logical to seek alliance with Russia given the corruption and powerlessness of the Ukraine government. The map of Ukraine is soon going to look like a piece of Swiss cheese.
Having been arrested by the military and held at gunpoint on my first visit there, I'm really not a fan of the Ukraine government.
As for deportation, might as well try to get the Irish out of Boston and back to Ireland. Ain't gonna happen.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
