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How do you see that working Ellemint? I try to keep an open mind to your claims, but then you pull the tired "brain-washed" insults. Use your own brain for a minute. When in history has the loser of a major war not been forced to demilitarize? What happened to Japan? Germany? I mean ****, that happened at the same time as the formation of Israel. Interesting how the countries that accepted surrender on unfavorable terms came out far ahead of the Palestinians who are still fighting a war they lost 60 years ago. For ****s sake. Attacks from Palestinians and Arab states have been continuous through Israel's entire history. Turns out, Germany and Japan realized that continuing to fight would be a worse option than accepting less than perfect terms.
Your question is, why should Israel not be demilitarized? You know damn well the history of hostilities to Israel, but let's take a refresher:
Egypt - Neighbor, Reasonably friendly
Jordan - Neighbor, Reasonably friendly
Lebanon - Neighbor, DOES NOT RECOGNIZE ISRAEL. Strong Hezbollah presence who are militarily hostile to Israel. Actively smuggle weapons into Palestinian territories that are used against Israel's CIVILIAN population. Occasionally initiate battles WITH Israel, last just a couple years ago. Also facing a possible invasion of Islamic State militants.
Syria - Neighbor, DOES NOT RECOGNIZE ISRAEL. Killed two Israelis less than 6 months ago with a tank round fired into Israel. Locked in a devastating civil war with Islamic State militants. Interestingly enough, Islamic State militants have also threatened Israel.
So, 2 of Israel's neighbors don't even recognize it as a country. 3 of its neighbors are in war or potentially going to war against IS. If IS was to gain control of Syria, do you think they'll stop at the demilitarized border with Israel?
Going a bit beyond the border for other countries in the region that do not recognize Israel:
Iran
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
UAE
Oman
It is clear to anybody that Palestinians need to demilitarize and Israel needs to maintain its status as a regional military powerhouse for peace to work.
So how has military power helped Israel? It's just made it a pariah in most of the world, except the U.S.
So maybe it's time for Israel to de-militarize, declare a one-state, one-vote-per-person nation. What's wrong with that? The same rights for everyone, Jewish or Arab.
Any extremist, whether Muslim or orthodox Jewish, gets jailed. Extremism from either side is not tolerated.
Or you could look at the fact that it has been the Palestinians who have broken every single peace agreement, not the Israelis. But of course that would require looking at facts rather than going along with whatever is politically correct at the moment, so we all know you won't do that.
I don't agree with that. If you are being held in a virtual open-air prison, with closed borders and restrictions on just about every aspect of your life, I believe those conditions alone are blocking peace. The Palestinians do not want to agree to a peace that involves continuation of the current apartheid situation, and the huge inequalities and lack of rights for Palestinians vs Israelis---and I don't blame them.
No, actually. We aren't brainwashed. We just don't go for your moronic rhetoric. The shelling started in the first place because the side you have so much sympathy for was launching rockets into Israel. Of course, you leave that out, just as all liberals do. They always characterize the conflict as a mutual one. It isn't. Israel did not attack until it was first attacked. That's called self defense. You know, the same self defense that you are such a fan of when it comes to a woman killing her abusive husband.
Yes, when Side A starts launching rockets at Side B, and then Side B begins to wipe the floor with Side A, then Side A is expected to disarm. That's how war works to rational people. If you attack someone and lose, you are expected to stand down. You don't get treated as an equal party.
Remember how you felt when the discussions were going about wife beaters? Remember how your argument was that if a man beats a woman than that man no longer deserves his constitutional rights? Well, just apply your own logic here. Hamas is the abusive man. Israel is the victimized woman who struck back. You would never in a million billion years ask a woman who was attacked to stop defending herself and say that the man who attacked her should be allowed to keep the gun he was shooting at her.
That's funny you should use that analogy, because it could just as well be viewed in the opposite way, Israel as the oppressor and the abuser, and the Palestinians being victimized by a far-stronger oppressor.
It is not black and white however, and both sides have committed atrocities. Extremism on either side is evil. But it is not as simple as Israel=good, and Palestinians=bad.
If you lived in a place in which your community was nearly walled in, with border exits controlled by your enemy, your enemy controlled your utilities, food supply, fishing and agricultural rights, medical services, education, and restricted those punitively for many years. Your enemy would not recognize the governing party that you voted into power. Your enemy certainly doesn't seem to recognize your right to exist. Your enemy freely entered your community whenever it felt like it, entered homes, and removed your young males, imprisoned them without due process or trials, beat them, sometimes killed them. It knocked down your homes and stole your land.---wouldn't you want to fight back?
No, you're not gonna bother with me because you know that it's totally irrelevant that there was never a Palestinian state.
Again, there was NO Israel not all that long ago either.
Just because no Palestinian state ever existed doesn't preclude one from existing at some point.
They don't want a state they want the whole region. Calling for the killing of all Jews is not a very good platform for forming ones own country, let alone forming a sensible government.
How does one support people who hand there children off to suicide bombers. Given to groups of men ready to make the children (age of 9) killing machines. Beheading is their way of saying "well done my faithful servant." Yet, you support them forming a country to raise more children of hate. We already have Saudi Arabia and Iran who treat their women as property, now you want a nation of people who give their children to Allah by the way of a bomb.
So how has military power helped Israel? It's just made it a pariah in most of the world, except the U.S.
So maybe it's time for Israel to de-militarize, declare a one-state, one-vote-per-person nation. What's wrong with that? The same rights for everyone, Jewish or Arab.
Any extremist, whether Muslim or orthodox Jewish, gets jailed. Extremism from either side is not tolerated.
Seriously, have you ever been in a bar fight?? Can you ever look back in history and see this has worked? Wake up! There are people who love the power of killing, the world of utopia stops in elementary school.
Something you people on the left are not hearing, extreme Islam is here to wipe all of you off the face of the earth. Convert or die........ Israel is fighting the fight, that Americans are starting to get tired of and we have just started.
If you haven't heard Hamas is the most well trained and has more financial backing than ever before, they are not downsizing. How will Israel de-militarizing help their people?
That's funny you should use that analogy, because it could just as well be viewed in the opposite way, Israel as the oppressor and the abuser, and the Palestinians being victimized by a far-stronger oppressor.
It is not black and white however, and both sides have committed atrocities. Extremism on either side is evil. But it is not as simple as Israel=good, and Palestinians=bad.
If you lived in a place in which your community was nearly walled in, with border exits controlled by your enemy, your enemy controlled your utilities, food supply, fishing and agricultural rights, medical services, education, and restricted those punitively for many years. Your enemy would not recognize the governing party that you voted into power. Your enemy certainly doesn't seem to recognize your right to exist. Your enemy freely entered your community whenever it felt like it, entered homes, and removed your young males, imprisoned them without due process or trials, beat them, sometimes killed them. It knocked down your homes and stole your land.---wouldn't you want to fight back?
the problem is that Israel is a REAL country while palistine is not...it was an area
they are Jordanian OCCUPIERS ...who inorder to get sympathy call them selves palistinians......might as well call them Persians since that whole area was part of the Persian empire
and now the 'Palestinians' ie OCCUPIERS are hamas backed...ie terrorist backed
Seriously, have you ever been in a bar fight?? Can you ever look back in history and see this has worked? Wake up! There are people who love the power of killing, the world of utopia stops in elementary school.
Something you people on the left are not hearing, extreme Islam is here to wipe all of you off the face of the earth. Convert or die........ Israel is fighting the fight, that Americans are starting to get tired of and we have just started.
If you haven't heard Hamas is the most well trained and has more financial backing than ever before, they are not downsizing. How will Israel de-militarizing help their people?
I agree it's bad that the Hamas spokesman wouldn't say that they would delete the statements about killing Jews from their charter.
But I still think extremism is the danger, not religion. The vast majority of the world's Muslims are not a danger to anyone.
So maybe it's time for Israel to de-militarize, declare a one-state, one-vote-per-person nation. What's wrong with that? The same rights for everyone, Jewish or Arab.
Any extremist, whether Muslim or orthodox Jewish, gets jailed. Extremism from either side is not tolerated.
If Israel demilitarizes, it will cease to exist. As for a one state solution you suggest, it will mean that the Israeli Jews will be annihilated by the Muslim extremists (like Hamas) who seek to remove/kill all Jews in the area.
Remember Hamas was voted into power so your solution of jailing all extremists won't exactly work either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellemint
I don't agree with that. If you are being held in a virtual open-air prison, with closed borders and restrictions on just about every aspect of your life, I believe those conditions alone are blocking peace. The Palestinians do not want to agree to a peace that involves continuation of the current apartheid situation, and the huge inequalities and lack of rights for Palestinians vs Israelis---and I don't blame them.
Again Gaza is not an open-air prison in any sense. The militants and their families are plenty supplied and it is Hamas who restricted movements within Gaza itself after it became the governing party there. The Egyptians have kept their border with Gaza as they don't want Palestinian Arabs in Egypt either.
Anyone who thinks israel recognizes Palestinians is an idiot. They were ethnically cleansed in 1948, they have no right of return back to their homes and their lands have been occupied for decades.
Why doesn't the govt of israel recognize the right of return of Palestinians? They say its because it would be the end of a jewish state? They want a majority jewish demographic to keep Israel's "Jewish" character in the words of Netanyahu.
That is modern day colonialism. No debate there. Israel is an apartheid state, end of story. Only in the US is this even a debate.
Anyone who thinks israel recognizes Palestinians is an idiot. They were ethnically cleansed in 1948, they have no right of return back to their homes and their lands have been occupied for decades.
The Palestinians didn't even exist before 1948. It's kind of hard to ethnically cleanse people who don't exist. To make peace Israel willingly tried to give up land to a group of people who didn't exist before 1948 so they could live in peace. This group rejected the offer because they don't want peace. Peace will only come when the entire world submits to Allah and Jews are driven into the sea. Allahu Akbar!
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