Black-White Inequality...Here Are The Facts (suspect, speech, invasion, gay people)

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by southbel

Well I was being a bit provocative but today I watched a highly educated black man on TV say that shoplifting and such was normal teenage behavior. That is NOT normal behavior and those types of statements do not help. We need to stop saying these types of things as it only causes people to turn the other cheek.

I hear you about the fairness argument and perhaps I just haven't let it bother me. I am the type who likes to succeed when others say it is too hard or impossible. It's partially my incredibly competitive nature and partially the way I was raised. I am not a person for whom empathy comes naturally so it's hard for me to see the side of people who talk of unfairness. I assume unfairness in everything due to a multitude of reasons, race being only one of them. For me, there is no ceiling and I only wish others would see that oftentimes that ceiling is a thin construct, easily broken with the necessary determination.

I haven't watched any news lately. I try to avoid it. Too much controversy. One reason I rarely like discussing politics with other people. Very few people I'm comfortable talking about these issues with. As for "normal", I never believed it was normal to commit any crime. It was never considered normal in my home to shoplift. I was taught early the fears of going to jail.

One thing that does bother me is seeing a lack of empathy. When I was younger, I didn't always pick up on unfairness, unless I was the target of it. It wasn't until I was older and began to notice certain things that I started to hear about them. In high school, I never questioned having to "hold it down for the race". I never questioned having to show everyone "not all Black kids are ghetto". I just looked at it as "it is what it is". However, I started seeing that I could be the most straight-laced person in the world, and I would still get into situations where I could be treated poorly. It shows on the CD forums that there is still this kind of attitude looming.

For myself, it was a matter of "why can't I just do things for my own benefit"? I naturally have a nerdy personality. I'm into things like books, classical music, history, geography, languages, etc, and the way I dress, it's for me. I like the button down shirts and a nice pair of slacks. It is for me. However, there are times when I wonder why I should have to go the extra mile for anything. I like the way I look in a suit or in dress shirts. One reason whenever I go to a mall, I head for the suit section. However, the reason is personal, it's for me. There are times when I feel like a White guy could wear "ghetto" clothes and the reaction isn't really racial, so much as it is "he's trashy" or "he's a badboy". If he cleans up, he's perceived as normal.
A Black guy, on the other hand, will be perceived in far worse terms if he dresses "ghetto". I have seen where a Black guy can dress in a suit and it will the perception will be much better, it doesn't always protect him from getting treated poorly.

When we're young we're taught that this is a land of fairness. When we get older, we see that it isn't. I think "I was taught this is suppose to be a land of fairness. How come I'm seeing the opposite"?

It isn't about "can the ceiling be broken" for me. It is possible. The question is about "If I have as much merit and ability as the next person, why should I have to work twice as hard to get the same amount"? Why should I have to prove myself where someone else doesn't have to? There is being competitive, and then there is facing situations where being competitive isn't about getting an advantage, but rather just trying to get by.

[Huckleberry3911948]

here is the burning question am i rich because i am white and lucky or because i am hardworking and save and scrimp alot?
when i came here i was more poor than most ghetto people. $150 and 2 suitcases.
french poor is much much worse than american poor.
does skin tone make you poor?
i dont know lets ask obama. lets ask cullin powell. lets ask jessie jackson. bill cosby. no no i changed my mind. lets ask the biggest supporter of your theory than white skin and luck makes you automatically rich, oprah.

[southbel]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I haven't watched any news lately. I try to avoid it. Too much controversy. One reason I rarely like discussing politics with other people. Very few people I'm comfortable talking about these issues with. As for "normal", I never believed it was normal to commit any crime. It was never considered normal in my home to shoplift. I was taught early the fears of going to jail.

One thing that does bother me is seeing a lack of empathy. When I was younger, I didn't always pick up on unfairness, unless I was the target of it. It wasn't until I was older and began to notice certain things that I started to hear about them. In high school, I never questioned having to "hold it down for the race". I never questioned having to show everyone "not all Black kids are ghetto". I just looked at it as "it is what it is". However, I started seeing that I could be the most straight-laced person in the world, and I would still get into situations where I could be treated poorly. It shows on the CD forums that there is still this kind of attitude looming.

For myself, it was a matter of "why can't I just do things for my own benefit"? I naturally have a nerdy personality. I'm into things like books, classical music, history, geography, languages, etc, and the way I dress, it's for me. I like the button down shirts and a nice pair of slacks. It is for me. However, there are times when I wonder why I should have to go the extra mile for anything. I like the way I look in a suit or in dress shirts. One reason whenever I go to a mall, I head for the suit section. However, the reason is personal, it's for me. There are times when I feel like a White guy could wear "ghetto" clothes and the reaction isn't really racial, so much as it is "he's trashy" or "he's a badboy". If he cleans up, he's perceived as normal.
A Black guy, on the other hand, will be perceived in far worse terms if he dresses "ghetto". I have seen where a Black guy can dress in a suit and it will the perception will be much better, it doesn't always protect him from getting treated poorly.

When we're young we're taught that this is a land of fairness. When we get older, we see that it isn't. I think "I was taught this is suppose to be a land of fairness. How come I'm seeing the opposite"?

It isn't about "can the ceiling be broken" for me. It is possible. The question is about "If I have as much merit and ability as the next person, why should I have to work twice as hard to get the same amount"? Why should I have to prove myself where someone else doesn't have to? There is being competitive, and then there is facing situations where being competitive isn't about getting an advantage, but rather just trying to get by.

I was having a discussion about influences and how I was saying that individual influences are far greater and more important in one's life than any societal influences. That doesn't negate those societal influences but I question their importance in an individual's life. I think you have described what I mean by that previous assertion. I've been called unique and different and all sorts of things that make me seem outside the norm. However, I think I'm not - at least in my circle. Sure, statistically I guess I am. But by statistics alone, regardless of race, I would be outside the norm as most females do not major in mathematics and are not in IT. My being half black becomes incidental given everything that I am or am not.

Empathy is hard for me. Yes, I have sympathy for people, but that is a far cry from empathy when you truly analyze it. As I simply cannot imagine what would ever drive me to a life of crime, having always understood and believed that committing any crime is simply not done, I cannot empathize with the person who chooses that path even if I may have sympathy for their circumstances. I don't necessarily see that as a failing on my part but rather an intrinsic characteristic of my personality.

I never questioned I would have to work harder than everyone else. It was something I was raised with but not because of my race. Rather, it was my own cultural upbringing and the family values that I learned even from a young age. My father told me he had three rules in life: do something that brings you happiness; don't ever accept someone else's limitations for yourself; and be the best at whatever you choose to do. It was a tall order, especially when I was young, and oftentimes I felt like I couldn't accomplish something. However, my upbringing taught me that where others see a struggle, I should recognize an opportunity to succeed. Yes, this meant that I would often have barriers thrown up in front of me, whether they be internal or external (i.e. other people, unfair rules, etc). I wasn't always successful but for some reason, I just never let it bother me. I am intellectually honest enough to know that a vast majority of people could not do this. However, imagine for a moment if every black child in this country was taught this from an early age instead of told of the barriers that exist because of his or her's racial history. Would we not see a cultural shift if this became the lesson to young black children everywhere?

Black Americans get upset when people say "stop playing the victim". There is some legitimacy to the claim, even though it's crass on its face. If black Americans are looking for the world to change instead of changing it themselves, we will never get there. We need to teach our young children of the possibility the world holds for them instead of the struggles it contains. Preparing your child for the realities they will face is one thing but conditioning them to look for and accept the struggles is another. Sadly, I think too many black Americans teach their children to accept the struggles and thus they never rise above them.

[Ralph_Kirk]

Originally Posted by Ibanezguitar

As a black person I know first hand what's holding back progress for black people, at least in the U.S.

Pop culture.

I see it in some of my younger relatives and it's the exact same influence I got away from. When I was in a predominantly black high school I noticed it was cool to be ignorant. Intellectual curiosity is all but absent unless it relates to some form of immediate gratification.

Also for males in particular, young attractive girls tend not to gravitate toward responsible, good natured boys. This provides a strong incentive for them to act out, to differentiate themselves as hardened, thugs. I had friends who completely changed their image to increase their success with the opposite sex, it's a positive feedback loop.

Of course this isn't limited to just black people, but as 12% of the population it's a devastating, vicious cycle.

Actually, anti-intellectualism is an American thing, not a black thing. American egalitarianism strongly rejects intellectualism as a characteristic of elitism.

It was not always a black thing--from our beginnings in America all the way through the 70s, the intellectual had an important and revered place in black culture. Even black revolutionaries in the 60s and 70s saw the need for the intellectual, such as Angela Davis. When I was a kid, I was known as the "prof" (which I didn't care for at the time), but it was a title, not an epithet. Even in the black high school halls of the 60s and 70s, the intellectual kid had a valid role.

What the heck happened in the 80s to make black people adopt the overall American anti-intellectualism? I don't know for sure.

[southbel]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

Actually, anti-intellectualism is an American thing, not a black thing. American egalitarianism strongly rejects intellectualism as a characteristic of elitism.

It was not always a black thing--from our beginnings in America all the way through the 70s, the intellectual had an important and revered place in black culture. Even black revolutionaries in the 60s and 70s saw the need for the intellectual, such as Angela Davis. When I was a kid, I was known as the "prof" (which I didn't care for at the time), but it was a title, not an epithet. Even in the black high school halls of the 60s and 70s, the intellectual kid had a valid role.

What the heck happened in the 80s to make black people adopt the overall American anti-intellectualism? I don't know for sure.

Interesting. The 80s was the decade of the majority of my youth. Trying to think about what happened in that decade in particular. I know in pop culture, we had the Cosby Show (my favorite then!), Will Smith as the Fresh Prince, 227, the rise of gangsta rap. But this was also the rise of crack cocaine, if you recall. This hit the poorer black communities particularly hard. But it's an interesting premise about the rise of anti-intellectualism among blacks. I'll have to give this some thought as it is quite a thought provoking idea!

[KILLA-P]

That would be me.

Two ways to look at this.

#1 Those numbers are inflated by the Mega Rich as far as white folks go. The Mitt Romneys, Warren Buffets, CEO's movers and shakers in APPLE, Microsoft, Wall ST etc. Just like the majority of white Americans can say "hey my people never owned slaves", its quite simple enough to say the "majority" are no-where near being rich. No more than 1 or 2 paychecks from dropping into poverty. These are my life observations I have no links to back me up just the truth. Middle class and below whites dont want to admit it cause well everyone wants someone else that they can look down on. From what I have seen in life its alot of smoke and mirrors. The Majority of us "Americans" are taking a beating. Pay checks have not kept up with the rate of inflaton---Thats a fact. Paychecks have not kept up with the increase in price for staples like bread, milk and gas. Don't fall for the divide and conquer.

Because if youre not on the top of the hill, sitting in a corporate board room deciding who you're going to lay off and what third world country the job is heading to. If youre not pimping Republican and Democratic politicians into slanting the playing field even further in your favor. If you arent making sure nothing changes in this crap lack of immigration policy debacle which lowers wages. If you arent a "player" you my friend are a SERF a PLEB one of the LOW. Don't get caught up in who is the lowest in the crap end of the septic tank.

There are extinuating circumstances in black folks cases but guess what the time for excuses are over cause its not going to change. One more time ---ITS NOT GOING TO CHANGE--- Its survival of the fittest so do what you have to to break the cycle and become better. Once you know the rules you have to find a way to make them work for you, just like successful people do. Pay attention to the tactics of the Jewish community.

But back to the inflated #'s when its a whole lot easier to get extended credit its easier to pull off that imaginary middle class and above image. (800 credit score in the black and liquidity over 100k and I still have more trouble getting credit than alot of my caucasian friends) Its also alot more stressful and it really sucks when you see someone who is not supposed to have as much as you have live at the same level you do naturally.

I have more money than the average. But I am a serf. Look up and forward, not sideways and behind you. My 2 cents. We all need to do better.

[jade408]

Originally Posted by southbel

Then I would have to see statistics on that because, having a teenage daughter myself, I know it wasn't normal for her group. Nor was it normal for when I was a teenager.

Originally Posted by the_human_being

Nor for anyone else. This is a total crock. Any child brought up correctly with a family and exposure to church will not resort to shoplifting and such. This is hood rat indoctrination at its finest. I had a sister and two daughters. I now have four granddaughters and none of them have ever shoplifted anything. Anyone who teaches such garbage and trash should be ashamed of him/herself. That kind of "it's Ok, others do it," is what's wrong with an already too indulgent and permissive society.

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

I didn't say it was a majority. But 43% is substantial and is almost certainly a short count--not everyone who has shoplifted is going to admit it even anonymously.

If 89 percent of teens "know someone who shoplifts" and 66 percent hang around such kids, the number of actual shoplifters must necessarily be pretty high.

When I was in middle school shoplifting was very common. I was a "good kid" and never got in trouble. Mostly everyone in my school went to church, and all of the shoplifters i knew were white. I decided to stop going to the mall with them, but it was easily half of the kids. They did not shoplift for need. They did because they could. None of them got caught. Claire's and the drugstore were their favorite places to steal from.

I went to Target yesterday and saw someone had stolen a power adapter. I didn't point it out to the clerk, because i did not want to be blamed for it.

[things and stuff]

Originally Posted by dorado0359

You may be Asian and you may be dark, but you're still not Black

You as an Asian and your people are direct beneficiaries of the sacrifices African-Americans made

And BTW, instead of criticizing black people, you should be thanking them for paving the way for you...and your people.

Wow. I hope you are not in a position of authority. You are probably VERY racist. The victim mentality is strong with you.

the Civil Rights and Jim Crow era, to gain Voting Rights, Equal Employment, Fair Housing, etcs. Yes, African-Americans were at the forefront..

White people probably had more to do with the success of the civil rights movement. I personally am glad I live in a country dominated by whites. Their legal and justice system is far from perfect but it is the best in the world. Things are certainly a lot more civilized here. Africa was a lot closer, but we didn't move there, for a reason.

it was the African-American blood, sweat and tears, that enabled you, an Asian to come to the United States, through open doors and outstreatched arms to reap the BENEFITS of African-American struggle. Those same educational, business economic and social benefits you received the first day you stepped foot on American soil, took African Americans over 300 years to to obtain.

Wrong. It was our own blood sweat and tears that enabled us to thrive in America. We had nobody to rely on but ourselves. Asians will still prosper even without Affirmative Action. We don't need special treatment and most of us don't dwell on the past.

I suggest you keep this in mind before you rant about what black people should or should not be doing. And BTW, instead of criticizing black people, you should be thanking them for paving the way for you...and your people. JMHO

Damn, you're dumb. Blacks are failing at even though there are racist, anti-white policies in place to help them. Blacks have every opportunity that poor immigrants like myself have yet are falling behind us. We work hard, very hard, to succeed and have parents who push us and do not make excuses for us. Meanwhile, the black culture is to blame others. If anything, you, and other blacks should be looking to people like myself for advice. The cultural divide between us makes all the difference. Keep on blaming whitey, though.

I guess it's whitey's fault that every 50%+ black school district in America is below average and poor immigrants are out-performing blacks. I mean, all they have to do is show up and put the effort in, just like the rest of us.

[kidkaos2]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I haven't watched any news lately. I try to avoid it. Too much controversy. One reason I rarely like discussing politics with other people. Very few people I'm comfortable talking about these issues with. As for "normal", I never believed it was normal to commit any crime. It was never considered normal in my home to shoplift. I was taught early the fears of going to jail.

How about it just being morally wrong to steal regardless of whether you go to jail or not?

One thing that does bother me is seeing a lack of empathy. When I was younger, I didn't always pick up on unfairness, unless I was the target of it. It wasn't until I was older and began to notice certain things that I started to hear about them. In high school, I never questioned having to "hold it down for the race". I never questioned having to show everyone "not all Black kids are ghetto". I just looked at it as "it is what it is". However, I started seeing that I could be the most straight-laced person in the world, and I would still get into situations where I could be treated poorly. It shows on the CD forums that there is still this kind of attitude looming.

This isn't some special burden you bear for being black. Everyone is under pressure to conform to what society wants. Everyone gets judged unfairly at times. That's just the way life is. It's part of the human experience.

For myself, it was a matter of "why can't I just do things for my own benefit"? I naturally have a nerdy personality. I'm into things like books, classical music, history, geography, languages, etc, and the way I dress, it's for me. I like the button down shirts and a nice pair of slacks. It is for me. However, there are times when I wonder why I should have to go the extra mile for anything.

You don't have to go the extra mile. It's entirely up to you. If you want to dress in black leather and metal studs, you're free to do so. If you want to wear a 3 piece suit and dress shoes, you're free to do that too. But you do live in society, and as such you will be judged. It's not some special scrutiny that you're under. Everyone is judged. If you dress like a punk, you will be seen to be a punk. If you dress like a nerd, you will be seen to be a nerd. You know going into it how various segments of society dress and look, so if you choose to dress and look similar to a certain group in society then you are going to be perceived to be a member of that group. That's how things are, and they are that way for a good reason. Recognizing patterns, making connections, classifying things based on observable characteristics is part of rational thought. It's how you know that if something looks like fire, you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it.

I like the way I look in a suit or in dress shirts. One reason whenever I go to a mall, I head for the suit section. However, the reason is personal, it's for me. There are times when I feel like a White guy could wear "ghetto" clothes and the reaction isn't really racial, so much as it is "he's trashy" or "he's a badboy". If he cleans up, he's perceived as normal.
A Black guy, on the other hand, will be perceived in far worse terms if he dresses "ghetto". I have seen where a Black guy can dress in a suit and it will the perception will be much better, it doesn't always protect him from getting treated poorly.

Yes, that's true. That's because black guys are 7-10 times more likely to be violent criminals than white guys. If you want to be judged on the same standards as white guys, then convince your fellow black guys to stop committing so much violent crime.

If I'm walking along the road and I see a car coming towards me, I do not know for sure whether that car will hit me or will swerve out of the way. But I will seek to avoid that car anyway. That doesn't mean I am prejudiced against automobiles. It means I am a rational being that takes risk factors into account when I decide on my course of action.

When we're young we're taught that this is a land of fairness. When we get older, we see that it isn't. I think "I was taught this is suppose to be a land of fairness. How come I'm seeing the opposite"?

My guess is that you're thinking that because you're liberal, and like most liberals you expect people to think the way you want them to think. Even though a person is 7 times more likely to be assaulted by a black man than a white man, you expect people to put their rational decisionmaking abilities and sense of self preservation on hold and instead go with your notions of fairness and equality.

It isn't about "can the ceiling be broken" for me. It is possible. The question is about "If I have as much merit and ability as the next person, why should I have to work twice as hard to get the same amount"?

You shouldn't and you don't. It's simply liberal rhetoric to say that you do. Gay people have life twice as hard as straight people. Women have life twice as hard as men. Blacks have life twice as hard as whites. It's just standard propaganda justifying the use of government aid programs to buy your vote.

The truth is that there are now more college educated women than men. Young women now make more money than young men. There are more women than men in management positions. Yet we still hear the exact same rhetoric coming from leftist feminists today that we heard back in 1970.

Why should I have to prove myself where someone else doesn't have to? There is being competitive, and then there is facing situations where being competitive isn't about getting an advantage, but rather just trying to get by.

This is just an excuse for failure. If you don't measure up you can just say you were better than the guy next to you but because he was white he got all the breaks and you got stepped on. Sorry, but it isn't 1965 anymore. If you have been legitimately discriminated against, then go to court. The law is on your side. The whining about racist "code words" and "undertones" and other such things that cannot be proven or demonstrated is just that -- whining. When you've gone from complaining about being lynched by men in white robes to having your feelings hurt by racist code words, then you've gone well past the point of protesting against legitimate discrimination and to the point of wallowing in self imposed victimhood.

[Tall Traveler]

The blacks that I have known that work hard I school to get educated with good degrees, that work to develop their skills in the workplace have been successful for the most part. The large majority that don't do well are lesser educated or not very motivated to exceed in the workplace. It is true that a large number of blacks live in areas where there is less opportunity and that's a factor although much of that is due to the crime and poor schools in virtually every large black majority area in the USA.

I grew up outside of New Orleans in a black majority community with poor schools, infrastructure, and crime ridden. Most of the blacks and whites there want to get along but there is a lot of old bad history and people (both black and white) are not fully committed to address the gripes and issues of the other side. Even there, the blacks that are intelligent and work hard are successful.

I now live in Washington state where the blacks are not really a separate community and they are just integrated into the overall culture. Here, most blacks live nearly the same level as the whites from what I can tell.

On thing that affects the wealth of blacks overall is that as they move into an area in large numbers, it drives down the real estate prices and they never seem to recover. So they may buy at a higher price but by the time they are the majority of an area, the prices are irretrievably low and this keeps the overall wealth of blacks down.