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But isn't Greece relying to a certain extent on other people's money to keep thing running???
Greece uses the Euro. They are pretty broke and cannot just print up Euros.....so they must be getting bailed-out to a certain extent.
I guess other's have/should-have some say if they are loaning/giving Greece bailout monies.
There were a few bailouts, but it wasn't enough and Germany wants austerity, which seems to be hurting Greece a lot.
I suppose that if the solution were obvious, there wouldn't be a problem at all... but I would tend to believe that the biggest issue is that Greece doesn't have absolute control over its own economy in the same way the US does, so it can't solve its own problems.
They probably need to go the US route and print up some money (like Obama did for the US, which is what saved you from total meltdown), but they can't because they're tied to the Euro. ALL of the economies that chose austerity-- Japan, Eurozone, etc... have fallen into a recession while the US prospered.
Responsible public spending could do a lot to turn everything around-- but then again, you can't change the inherent Greek-ness that is probably most to blame.
And for all the people upset that the leftists are in charge, relax-- socialism is widely accepted in Europe and a huge part of the culture. It could have been the fascists-- actually, it still might be.
On the other hand, some of you would probably happily vote for the fascists if they were running in the US, given what they represent.
And for all the people upset that the leftists are in charge, relax-- socialism is widely accepted in Europe and a huge part of the culture. It could have been the fascists-- actually, it still might be.
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Greece had a socialist government in charge for the better part of the last 35 years... PASOK. They are the ones who created this mess to begin with. What SYRIZA is, is a coalition of radical marxist-anarchists, and far left socialists. In fact most of it's members are communists (former political party of Synaspismos).
They are by far the furthest left wing government in power right now in Europe. IMO they are a cancer, and will most likely lead to an implosion. I wouldn't be surprised if a military junta in the near future, but that depends how ideologically driven Tsipras is, and how far he is willing to go.
Money is debt, wise guy. That's how it is created. Poof!
Money is created by deficit spending.
No, money is not created by borrowing from "federal government agencies, individuals, businesses, state and local governments, as well as people, businesses and governments from other countries" so the government can run deficits.
"U.S. Treasury securities are debt instruments. The U.S. Department of the Treasury issues securities to raise the money needed to operate the federal government."
"Here’s where the Government is different from individual people and businesses...
The U.S. Treasury issues or creates the debt.
The Bureau of the Fiscal Service manages the Government’s debt. That means it keeps records, takes care of selling the debt, and handles paying back people who loaned the Government money.
The U.S. Treasury and the Bureau of the Fiscal Service do not decide how the money is spent. The legislative branch of Government (Congress) decides how the money is spent.
There is a maximum amount of debt the Government can have. This is known as the “debt ceiling.” To raise that amount, the U.S. Treasury must get Congress to approve a new and higher limit."
So now that you know you were wrong you'll do the right thing and not repeat this lie again, correct? I only ask because we did this same thing several times in the past and yet here you are again.
I currently live in Europe, and there is quite a bit of talk about Greece-- the general impression I'm getting is that the Greeks felt like being tied to the Euro meant the stronger economies would be forced to bail them out no matter what, so they used it as a license to go wild.
My GF lived in Greece for a few years and she tells me that the public sector was an absolutely horrible bloated monster of a mess before the crash... people's friends were getting them jobs where demand didn't exist and they were being paid good salaries to do nothing. That's not welfare-- it's insanity.
It's one thing if you have a publicly owned industry that is responsibly managed and makes a profit that is returned to the public, and quite another thing if you start throwing money at people without actually checking to see if they're doing something that needs to be done, and meanwhile everyone else is getting into so much debt that it becomes a universally acceptable part of the culture, and they simply laugh and live it up because everyone knows that there is absolutely no way that any of them could ever possibly pay it back, so it doesn't matter.
I don't think this is necessarily about the entire concept of public spending as much as it is about the Greek mindset, however... Germany is still spending heavily on its public sector, the difference is that the German mindset isn't trapped in a Southern European third world mindset.
Sufficed to say a lot of the other European countries are PISSED and it's a huge part of why the radical left wing parties are getting elected-- the center parties are ambivalent about leaving the EU, so that leaves the fascist right and the more radical socialist left.
The idea that this is simply a matter of public spending as a concept being a bad idea is really stupid... mismanagement happens just as much in the private sectors as it does in the public sectors, and public spending is a great way to stimulate economic growth IF IT IS DONE RESPONSIBLY.
If nobody cares about what people are doing with the money they're throwing at them or thinking about how they're going to get it back, then things are going to go wrong.
Whenever I think of Greece and its economy, I can’t help but recall the stool-sample story.
Sorry to begin on a scatological note, but here’s a revealing tale about a country that, by electing the radical left-wing Syriza party over the weekend, just voted itself down the toilet. In 2011, Greek entrepreneur Fotis Antonopoulos and his partners decided to start OliveShop.com, an online store specializing in organic olive-oil products.
Before they could start their business, they first needed the right paperwork. As recounted in the Greek newspaper e-Kathimerini, authorizations were required from the government tax office, the local municipality, the fire department. Also the bank, which insisted that the entire website be in Greek—and only in Greek—despite Mr. Antonopoulos’s attempts to explain that he intended to market his products to foreign customers.
And then there was the health department, which informed Mr. Antonopoulos that company shareholders would be required to furnish chest X-rays and, yes, stool samples. Greece has standards, you know.
It took OliveShop.com 10 months to get all the right stamps, certificates and signoffs. The problem with the bank was resolved only when Mr. Antonopoulos opted for PayPal instead. Registering with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, by contrast, took him all of 24 hours and one five-minute digital form.
Since the dollar is the worlds currency, that even the Euro is backed by, that makes the Federal Reserve the go to guy.
Guess who pays for that.
The hidden tax everyone pays for. Monetary manipulation, makes a loaf of bread go from 5¢, to $2.
Who pays.....
You have it backwards. If you can artificially live above your means via deficit spending then you're not the one suffering (right now at least). If that deficit spending has resulted in $6 trillion borrowed by entities foreign to your government then what do you think will happen if the demand for dollars (because it's no longer the dominant reserve currency) decreases and supply stays the same or decreases at a slower pace than the sell off?
The answer is ambiguous but in general it means your lifestyle will diminish and your government will not have as broad of a tool to fight downturns in the economy. If the government can't deficit spend then you oh have no options other than austerity.
There were a few bailouts, but it wasn't enough and Germany wants austerity, which seems to be hurting Greece a lot.
I suppose that if the solution were obvious, there wouldn't be a problem at all... but I would tend to believe that the biggest issue is that Greece doesn't have absolute control over its own economy in the same way the US does, so it can't solve its own problems.
They probably need to go the US route and print up some money (like Obama did for the US, which is what saved you from total meltdown), but they can't because they're tied to the Euro. ALL of the economies that chose austerity-- Japan, Eurozone, etc... have fallen into a recession while the US prospered.
Austerity is like "Living Wage" or "Basic Income" or "Poverty."
It must be defined objectively in no uncertain terms.
A 10% across-the-board spending reduction is not Austerity. Neither is a 50% cut or a 90% cut.
I can cut $1 TRILLION out of the US budget, and your economy wouldn't stumble.
It's not the quantity that is cut, rather its the quality of the spending that is reduced.
Poor quality spending by government that creates drag, inefficiency, waste, over-capitalizes economic sectors, under-capitalizes economic sectors etc etc etc is what must be cut.
You cannot do that by picking a number and making across-the-board budget cuts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
Any comparison between government finances and personal finances is invalid. You don't understand economics.
You don't understand...that's right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
You tell me smart guy.
How can a country "tax" and "spend" what wasn't created yet?
There's your answer.
I've explained that a dozen times in 10,000 words or less, sometimes with pictures, and you still don't get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
No, governments that issue their own fiat currency can't "live beyond their means." They have no means to live beyond.
Like I said, how can a government tax what doesn't exist yet?
Who is going to force the United States into default? Ted Cruz?!?!
No, ignorant people like you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated
A $1 bill is a "loan."
Money is debt, wise guy. That's how it is created. Poof!
Money is created by deficit spending.
Money is neither debt nor created by deficit spending.
No magic there....
Mircea
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