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Using that logic we should have built houses in Japan and Germany, Israel seems to be very adept at confiscating property after each conflict.
Oh well, that's the cost you pay when you start a war. If you can't finish it in your favor, you are at the mercy of the winner. In this case, a very merciful winner, considering America and it's wonderful morality, would oh so snap their fingers and the Gaza Strip would disappear.
That being said, while you attempt to throw baggage at Israeli morality (classic anti-Semitism), lets equally examine the United States history through war time. How many civilians did the U.S kill during its wars? (I.E WWI,WWII,ect...)?
You should pose that question to the people here who think Israel has no right to keep occupying and controlling the West Bank after it was attacked three times and won that land in war.
I am fine with Israel not just running Gaza and the West Bank, but occupying them, settling them, and expelling the Palestinians. Just as I'm fine with staying here in the U.S. even though my ancestors were from Europe.
The history of the world is a history of war, occupation, disposession, etc. If you're going to apply one standard to Israel, but not to everyone else, then you are an anti-semite. If Israel has to withdraw from the West Bank, then everyone should have to withdraw from everywhere.
Look, if you're gonna argue with me, at least argue things that said. I get that copying and pasting an argument is easier, but it doesn't work here. I do apply the same standards to Israel. Palestine and Israel need peace if the area is every going to stabilize (and again, no one actually wants that; powerful people benefit from disorder in the Middle East). I don't think the Jews or the Palestinians should be expected to leave or be submissive to the other.
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Originally Posted by dechatelet
The Palestinians don't want a two-state solution. They elected Hamas in Gaza. Hamas's charter says that Israel must be destroyed, period. The Palestinians in the West Bank have allied themselves with the Hamas government.
Not only that, but Israel withdrew from Gaza and let the Palestinians take over. Call it a "dry run" for the eventual two-state solution. Instead of living side by side with Israel in peace, the Gazans launched rocket attacks into Israeli civilian areas.
Again: The Palestinians and surrounding Arab countries have PROVEN that they don't want a two state solution. They only want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
That's because they all think they have the right to that land because of a stupid book that was written thousands of years ago. Rather we like how the Arabs do things, they aren't any more or less wrong about who deserved Israel. Both sides have occupied it at one point or another. You can argue that the Jews had it first, but you clearly don't care about that. Or at least, you can't show you care about that because that would make your bit about Native Americans seems like your are incapable of being unbiased.
The two parties need to start working together to see eye to eye on the issue. It's possible, but despite all of our involvement in the Middle East, it hasn't happened yet. In fact, it's gotten worse. And of course, I'm not an idiot so I know we never went over there to help anyone but ourselves. But if we were to help the issue, Israel would have to be converted into a state that is religiously unbiased. By enforcing this, there would be fewer problems. Yes, radical Muslims are a problem and they need to be stopped. Obviously the US is not capable of this, so we should probably start taking a different approach.
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Originally Posted by dechatelet
Why not? I didn't know we had to get approval for the things we do and support.They gave up their land in 1948 when they were urged to flee by the Arab countries who were attacking Israel at the very moment of its birth. They expected that Israel would be destroyed and they would get their land back. Didn't happen -- oh, well.
Because Democracy has a set standard, and you can't change that based on who is elected. If we stopped pretending we cared at all about freedom, I'd give the US a pass for it's honesty, but it's still thinks we believe we're helping in the Middle East because we care. Well, some people do still believe that, which is actually kind of funny at this point.
I hold the my country to a set of standards. If our government wants to by a hypocritical war machine out to achieve mass economic gain by selling Democracy to people we decided deserve it, it will do so without my support and I will heavily criticize our governments complete lack of a moral compass.
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Originally Posted by dechatelet
At the same time, Jews were expelled from the surrounding Arab countries. But we never hear anything about them getting their land back, do we?
And that's too bad isn't it. It's almost like the media has an agenda, being selective with what's considered important.
I know it's hard to imagine because I don't just blindly support Israel, but I do care about what happens to the Jews. They shouldn't have been expelled from other countries. But they don't get to 'own' Israel just because we decided they're more worthy. The only fair solution is to have Israel be a shared land. The Jews certainly deserve a portion of it to themselves, I'm not arguing that. And they have every right to defend themselves from any attackers.
I'm not anti-Israel or anti-semetic. I'm pro-humanity. Neither side truly has a moral high ground anymore, especially us. Hamas is an extremist terrorist organization. I do not support them, but I'm not going to blame the Palestinian people for what Hamas does, even if they elected them. We don't do that with Nazi Germany, do we? People forget that Hitler rose to power without actually using much force. He was elected and slowly took power, and all the while, the people supported him. But the German people weren't blamed. But they were Christians and the right kind of white, so it's different, right?
Obama is having a fit because he wants to be in full control...
And republicans are having these fits, because? Let me tell you... because they want Americans to dance to the whims of a specific foreign nation. And a significant number of Americans do that dance, because it is simply a renewed effort for yet another effort to drive into the "Holy Land" at any cost.
Using that logic we should have built houses in Japan and Germany, Israel seems to be very adept at confiscating property after each conflict.
Your account of my logic fails because I said the winner gets to determine what goes on in the area it occupies after defeating an enemy. That doesn't automatically mean confiscating property. We chose not to do that in Germany and Japan. In the case of Japan, we were attacked. Israel did not attack its neighbors.
A more apt comparison to the Israeli occupation would be the occupation of portions of Germany by the Soviet Union, Britain and France after WW II.
Germany attacked the Soviet Union, Britain and France, and was defeated, just as surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel and were defeated. The Soviets occupied eastern Germany while France and Britain (along with their ally, the U.S.) occupied western Germany.
No one questioned that right of occupation and the right of the victors to establish the rules in occupied Germany. Nor did anyone seriously object when Czechoslovakia -- liberated from Nazi rule -- expelled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Germans from the Sudetenland.
Again, Israel is expected to play by one set of rules, everyone else by another. That is anti-semitism, pure and simple.
Last edited by dechatelet; 01-30-2015 at 11:24 PM..
Let Israel do what it wants and bear the responsibilities of its actions. The US should be no more involved there than Israel is with defending Native American rights in the US. Or would that be too unbiased for you?
I don't care either way.
But enough of this whining about the "poor Palestinians" and the "evil Israelis."
That's because they all think they have the right to that land because of a stupid book that was written thousands of years ago.
Which book are you talking about? The Torah, the Bible, the Koran?
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You can argue that the Jews had it first, but you clearly don't care about that.
So what if I don't care? They still had it first. There was no Christianity or Islam yet when they had it.
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...if we were to help the issue, Israel would have to be converted into a state that is religiously unbiased.
Israel cannot afford to have more non-Jews than Jews. The whole reason Israel came into being was persecution of Jews in non-Jewish majority countries. They're not going to let that happen again.
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Hamas is an extremist terrorist organization. I do not support them, but I'm not going to blame the Palestinian people for what Hamas does, even if they elected them.
There's really nothing to say to that, other than "your true colors are showing."
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People forget that Hitler rose to power without actually using much force. He was elected and slowly took power, and all the while, the people supported him. But the German people weren't blamed.
Sure they weren't. They were just bombed and their country reduced to a smoldering rubble.
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But they were Christians and the right kind of white, so it's different, right?
The Palestinians have gotten a mere wrist slap compared to what happened to the Germans in WW II. But I guess they're not white Europeans, so they get a kind of "affirmative action" pass on that, right?
Which book are you talking about? The Torah, the Bible, the Koran?So what if I don't care? They still had it first. There was no Christianity or Islam yet when they had it.
"Strictly speaking it is incorrect to call an ancient Israelite a ‘Jew’ or to call a contemporary Jew an Israelite or a Hebrew." (1980 Jewish Almanac, p. 3).
"Khazars, confederation of Turkic and Iranian tribes that established a major commercial empire in the second half of the 6th century, covering the southeastern section of modern European Russia... In the middle of the 8th century the ruling classes adopted Judaism as their religion." Encyclopedia Britannica (15th edition)
"The primary meaning of Ashkenaz and Ashkenazim in Hebrew is Germany and Germans. This may be due to the fact that the home of the ancient ancestors of the Germans is Media, which is the Biblical Ashkenaz... Krauss is of the opinion that in the early medieval ages the Khazars were sometimes referred to as Ashkenazim... About 92 percent of all Jews or approximately 14,500,000 are Ashkenazim."
The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia
"It is highly probable that the bulk of the Jew's ancestors 'never' lived in Palestine 'at all,' which witnesses the power of historical assertion over fact." The Outline of History, H.G. Wells
I'm confused. If this WH, and by that I assume you are referring to the President, is so very antisemitic, why have so many Jews worked in his administration?
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