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I doubt it's that clear. If it was, there wouldn't have to be laws to include sexual orientation.
Sure it's that clear. If you refuse to sell a regular cake to someone who is a protected class based on whatever moral or religious excuse you find, you may find yourself party to a discrimination lawsuit. I would not personally ever sue anyone for plain ole stupidity or intolerance. I would just take myself to another business and make sure to tell all my friends about the reception I got at your business and hope that nature would take it course and you'd go out of business. But, if other people want to sue you or stage a protest in front of your store or alert the national media, that is well within their rights.
People have the right to think and say whatever they want. I just have no sympathy when they whine and complain about the consequences.
I think that ethically, you should serve her/him - I'm not sure what tattoos would have to do with that.
Before you bring it up, business owners can and do refuse service to people whose actual *behavior in the store* is objectionable. But refuse them even if they are ordinarily civil and have the money? I think when you do that, you are telling a fellow citizen that s/he is not as good as you, and that is breaking our social contract.
I'm not arguing whether what people do is right or wrong. I disagree with the actions of the baker.
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BTW, I think it should go w/out saying, I'm certain you know this, the government would only get involved if your spurned customer made a complaint. But s/he wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on, because tattooed people are not a protected class.
Right. Is the government the proper entity to decide who will be protected and who isn't? Isn't that discrimination in itself?
Why are you unable to decide that yourself? If I do not like the service a business provides I absolutely do not have to use their services.
Besides, as I note above, the can still refuse to do business with you, they just can't be blunt about it. Wouldn't it be better to simply know up front?
You are able to decide that for yourself.
You are also a member of a society. Societies make rules. They codify those rules into laws. You might disagree with those laws, and then it is up to you to decide to abide by the law, or to break the law. That's up to you. You decide for yourself. And you can abide by the law while trying to persuade society that the law needs to be changed. You can engage in civil disobedience while trying to persuade society that the law needs to be changed. You can break the law and try to hide the violation. That's all up to you.
As for knowing up front, I don't want to know the baker's religious beliefs at all. I want to know if he can make me a lemon crumb cake with raspberry filling, and if the cake will taste good. I want to know how much he'll charge me for it. I want to know if he can deliver or not. I couldn't care less about his religious beliefs, or about what he does in the privacy of his own home. As for my religious beliefs and what I do in the privacy of my own home, that's none of his business.
It's about far more than religion. It's about the proper role of the government.
And what pray tell, in your opinion, is the "proper" role of government if not protecting the rights of ALL citizens? And please do not tell me that religious rights are being trampled. Laws are not being passed to prohibit anyone's practice of their religion within their home or place of worship. As soon as you leave those places and hang out a shingle as a public entity, you need to leave your religious belief and practices out of it or else you are trampling the rights of others.
Sure it's that clear. If you refuse to sell a regular cake to someone who is a protected class based on whatever moral or religious excuse you find, you may find yourself party to a discrimination lawsuit.
"A protected class". That in itself is discrimination.
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I would not personally ever sue anyone for plain ole stupidity or intolerance. I would just take myself to another business and make sure to tell all my friends about the reception I got at your business and hope that nature would take it course and you'd go out of business. But, if other people want to sue you or stage a protest in front of your store or alert the national media, that is well within their rights.
I have no problem with someone deciding to stage a protest. I think it's the proper action if one believes they have been wronged here.
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People have the right to think and say whatever they want. I just have no sympathy when they whine and complain about the consequences.
Outside of running to the government to decide these things, I agree.
You are also a member of a society. Societies make rules. They codify those rules into laws. You might disagree with those laws, and then it is up to you to decide to abide by the law, or to break the law. That's up to you. You decide for yourself. And you can abide by the law while trying to persuade society that the law needs to be changed. You can engage in civil disobedience while trying to persuade society that the law needs to be changed. You can break the law and try to hide the violation. That's all up to you.
As for knowing up front, I don't want to know the baker's religious beliefs at all. I want to know if he can make me a lemon crumb cake with raspberry filling, and if the cake will taste good. I want to know how much he'll charge me for it. I want to know if he can deliver or not. I couldn't care less about his religious beliefs, or about what he does in the privacy of his own home. As for my religious beliefs and what I do in the privacy of my own home, that's none of his business.
As a non-Christian all of this discussion about religious dogmas is irrelevant to me.
Although I am not a Christian, I am an American citizen. I expect the laws of the US to be divorced from religious dogmas as per the Constitution of the United States.
Perhaps this discussion is better discussed in the Religion Forum?
I hate that is has become a "religious freedom" discussion because this isn't a religious issue. This is a property rights issue and about freedom for everybody. I believe that as a baker or pizza maker you have the right to refuse service to ANYBODY for ANY reason, religious or not, on your property. There is no such thing as "religious freedom" there is freedom and it should be exercised and enjoyed by everybody. There are no "black rights" or "gay rights" or "female rights" there are individual rights and they apply equally to everybody.
It's about far more than religion. It's about the proper role of the government.
I think you want to make this about the proper role of the government. But the government in this case is responding to what various factions of society want. Government is just the tool. Society is determining what the balance should be here. That's why people are arguing, debating, discussing. That's why legislatures are passing laws and revising them and reversing themselves.
As a society, we are constantly evolving. It's a sign of a healthy society. A stagnant society is not healthy. And this issue involves deep-seated ideas and values. We are at a point of profound change. It's incredibly exciting.
"Protected class". They are not protecting the rights of all citizens. Besides, there is no right to never be offended.
The only reason we have "protected" classes is because we have a history of discriminating against those classes of people, of not protecting their rights. It's not that we don't protect the rights of all citizens, it's that we haven't, in the past, and the groups that have suffered are recognized, formally, legally, so that they don't suffer future discrimination.
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