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"devastating point", that was a good one. you made me chuckle on that one.
We get it. You are in love with the Appeal to Motivation. It's a straw man. Redistributive Welfare is immoral, regardless of the feelings of those pointing out its flaws.
I can be, at night, a selfish dirty rotten scoundrel child molesting animal raping girl scout killing mass murdering pyromaniacal terroristic overweight misogynistic part time streetwalking xwhore (the x is silent)
I can be all those things. And yet, money that I earn legally doing my day job is mine, and taking it me from against my will to give to others who need it is morally wrong.
MOTIVATION AND FEELINGS ARE IRRELEVANT.
The activity of non-voluntary redistribution is evil and wrong and immoral and destructive and bad. And those are its good points.
Again, yours is a truly radical vision of this modern society, and really fits more with feudal societies.
Your vision has no basis in reality and is not popular even amongst other conservatives.
Even the vast majority of conservatives no longer make your insane argument.
conservatives now insist they are ok and fine with people using huge government programs like SS, Medicare, even Medicaid, and smaller ones like welfare, foodstamps, disability, etc , conservatives say their main complaint is they just don't want people to abuse those benefits.
conservatives long ago list the battle over the idea of government helping citizens, serving its citizens in America.
You are making a pre modern America argument that's already lost. Good luck with that.
But even taking all that into consideration, the conservative lie they opposition to these programs is about keeping more of their money has no basis in reality.
Again, the foodstamp, rental assistance/section 8 housing/HUD, welfare/TANF, WIC, and heating assistance programs combined are far less than 4% of the federal budget.
Yet those programs receive the most intense hatred from conservatives. This hatred is not about keeping more of their money, because they should have far more intense anger at far more costly programs, but they don't.
Instead conservatives save the lions share of their outrage at relatively tiny programs that they perceive to help groups of Americans they hate.
And conservatives use these irrational reasons for why they really hate those programs, yet those irrational reasons don't matter and will be discarded easily if proven wrong.
What conservatives hate are not government programs, but other Americans whom they don't want to benefit from the government.
Again, yours is a truly radical vision of this modern society, and really fits more with feudal societies.
Your vision has no basis in reality and is not popular even amongst other conservatives.
Even the vast majority of conservatives no longer make your insane argument.
conservatives now insist they are ok and fine with people using huge government programs like SS, Medicare, even Medicaid, and smaller ones like welfare, foodstamps, disability, etc , conservatives say their main complaint is they just don't want people to abuse those benefits.
conservatives long ago list the battle over the idea of government helping citizens, serving its citizens in America.
You are making a pre modern America argument that's already lost. Good luck with that.
But even taking all that into consideration, the conservative lie they opposition to these programs is about keeping more of their money has no basis in reality.
Again, the foodstamp, rental assistance/section 8 housing/HUD, welfare/TANF, WIC, and heating assistance programs combined are far less than 4% of the federal budget.
Yet those programs receive the most intense hatred from conservatives. This hatred is not about keeping more of their money, because they should have far more intense anger at far more costly programs, but they don't.
Instead conservatives save the lions share of their outrage at relatively tiny programs that they perceive to help groups of Americans they hate.
And conservatives use these irrational reasons for why they really hate those programs, yet those irrational reasons don't matter and will be discarded easily if proven wrong.
What conservatives hate are not government programs, but other Americans whom they don't want to benefit from the government.
Doubles down on "devastating" irrelevant point...
And that's fine. It's OK to hate someone and not want to give them anything. That is totally OK and unremarkable and cool.
We are free to like or hate anyone we wish. We should be free to give what we earn and own to anyone we wish, or to no one.
Private property rights and freedom of association are good and cool and part of a free society.
The question was not about welfare, so people sidestepping it need to take their ADD/ADHD medication and get back to the point. What has all of this war gotten us? Nothing that benefits us.
I trust you're for securing the borders and never giving a path to citizenship for illegal aliens.
How about this ... THIS "Liberal" believes our borders should be secured in a fashion similar to how the North and South Korea border is .... Bring MOST of our Troops home to protect OUR borders.
So you are down with cutting off aid to poor kids, huh? You need to move to Somalia you won't have to worry about people getting welfare there. Disgusting...
Creating an atmosphere where their parents can get jobs, isnt cutting off aid.. it helps enourage them to obtain wealth and move up the economic ladder, not keep them poor..
Disgusting is somehow believing by creating policies to expand poverty, we are somehow improving peoples lives.
The irony here is that liberals, leftists and Democrats claim they want to protect the worker's ability to make a good living and rise in society.
Then they encourage massive legal and illegal immigration -- regardless of how many jobs there are -- forcing wages down and increasing unemployment for American citizens. As they do this, they blithely talk about all those "jobs Americans won't do."
Next, they create a permanent dependent underclass of Americans who don't have to do the jobs "Americans won't do" because they can live on welfare.
Last, they create an elite of unionized government employees who contribute their union dues to Democrat politicians and, in return, get lavish salaries and pensions, and are impossible to fire for cause. Thus are the public schools allowed to crumble (in California) while unionized teachers with seniority get six figure salaries and five figure pensions. Thus do cities and counties stop maintaining their infrastructure as they teeter on the verge of bankruptcy caused by pension obligations to government employees.
All the while, they celebrate a president (Obama) who bails out Wall Street and the super-rich while giving the cold shoulder to Main Street and the tax-paying middle and working class.
Obama, Harry Reid, the Clintons, Pelosi, Feinstein -- "working class heroes" who never did a lick of hard physical work in their lives but become millionaires through influence peddling. They also manage to support things like the Patriot Act and going to war in Iraq, then turn around and point accusing fingers at Republicans for...supporting things like the Patriot Act and going to war in Iraq.
They also accuse Republicans and conservatives of being racist, but the real racists are those who can never stop talking about race and who disregard the individual in favor of pigeon-holing people into assorted groups that either get sympathy or condemnation regardless of their individual character.
Obama accused Bush of doubling the national debt, then doubled it again himself.
All told, it is hard to think of any issue about which liberals and Democrats are not complete hypocrites.
But, truly, their worst offense is against the ghetto poor. As someone here rightly said, Democrats are paying blacks to "go away," and thus continuing their long history of racism, Jim Crow and support for slavery.
Exactly Ellis. If there was no welfare, there would be no country at all. It would have gone down in flames to perpetual class-warfare. The pitchforks would have been coming. And Wall-Street would need a constant military presence.
Welfare was a giveaway to quiet "class warfare". Keep the peasants thinking they're getting a good deal.
And the welfare system isn't quite the giveaway people think it is. Its purpose is to be a stop-gap. The government tries to prevent people from being dependent on it, get them working, keep the economic machine purring. The only people who are by-design supposed to remain on welfare, are people who cannot work at all(disabled, elderly, etc). Since they can't work, then giving them money doesn't negatively affect production. In fact, it can positively affect production by increasing demand/consumption.
I think the world would be better without welfare. But I don't see how to get rid of it without collapsing economies and "nation-states".
You are basically left with only two choices. Do you want a united country/world, and a far wealthier world(materially), but with ****ty/selfish/immoral people? Or do you want a heavily divided world, of relative poverty, but with good/generous/moral people?
The problem is, even if you tried to pick option 2. The rich people wouldn't allow you to stay that way. You would be conquered in some way, and forced into option 1. And the richer the people become in option 1, the ****tier/more selfish/more immoral the people become.
Congratulations people, you made the world suck.
Think of social welfare, old age pensions and state sponsored medical facilities, rehabilation facillites like spas or sanitariums and public resorts as "Revolution Insurance" The first German Chancellor Count Otto von Bismarck did.
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