Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, we do all die at one point or another for various reasons....did you not know that?
Thanks for the info. I'll be sure to remember it.
Quote:
If someone gave birth to a special needs child, then no they shouldn't kill the child if they didn't want it, that decision to end the fetus should have happened very early on in the pregnancy, at the point of birth it is too late to change that choice.
Other than law... why is it too late? Or is the only reason it's too late because of the law?
Quote:
Oh, I am not saying you can't say what you are saying, I am just pointing out what you are saying is wrong and you do not have the right to dictate your morals and beliefs onto others. You know, Constitutional rights and all.
When Planned Parenthood is able to operate due to my money supporting it, then I should have a say.
Quote:
So basically you are saying you don't want any of your money going to the government.....
When part of my money goes to the government, I believe that I should have a say in how it's spent. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's my responsibility as a tax payer to try.
Quote:
and yes, a woman's uterus is her choice with what is and isn't allowed to grow inside it, not yours or the government's.
In your eyes it's not a baby. In my eyes it is. So it's obvious why we disagree.
But I hope that you understand that it's perfectly reasonable and consistent for someone to want to protect life, regardless of where that life is growing. It's my moral responsibility to do what I can.
I will not force you or anyone to do anything. I can only hope that women make the "choice" to not execute their child.
I comprehend it just fine. I just happen to disagree with your definition.
I am making an effort to get you to understand why someone would feel so strongly about protecting the baby.
That is why I am providing an analogy. I am using an example of a child that you consider "alive".
If you feel that it would be right to intervene to prevent a parent from killing their 1 day old child, then you would understand why pro-lifers feel it's right to try and intervene and plead for someone not to kill their baby.
Sure, it falls on deaf ears in your case because you define life differently. But if you are being intellectually honest you'll fully understand why someone would feel the need to plead for you to spare the baby's life. Just put yourself in the shoes of seeing a parent killing a baby that you consider alive.
In my view, you're thanking the country for allowing killing. Just like how parents in ancient times were allowed to kill their children.
I expect 100 yrs from now civilization will look back at this time and wonder how such an advanced society could advocate for such barbaric behavior.
I have said I understand people being pro life. I have no problem with it. being for birth of a child is also included in being pro choice. women have a choice.
the problem I have with your position is that you have steadfastly refused to participate in a real discussion about the things that effect women and why they pick abortion. unless you want to engage in that conversation you are figuratively putting your finger in your ears and saying naner naner, not gonna listen.
I don't define life a whole lot differently than you do. what I do define differently is a woman's right to be autonomous over her own body. you do not.
if anyone is being not being "intellectually honest" it is you for refusing to debate the issues that truly are reality for women who abort. until you want to face and discuss that you just continue to repeat the same thing and it hasn't much substance other than you want to protect life. the issue is far more complicated than that.
I have said I understand people being pro life. I have no problem with it. being for birth of a child is also included in being pro choice. women have a choice.
the problem I have with your position is that you have steadfastly refused to participate in a real discussion about the things that effect women and why they pick abortion. unless you want to engage in that conversation you are figuratively putting your finger in your ears and saying naner naner, not gonna listen.
I'm not sure what you want me to say.
I understand why some women would choose abortion. I don't see women who choose abortion as evil. I understand that their definition of life is different than mine, so if they can make a choice to avoid the responsibility of a child, then there can be a lot of reasons.
I have friends who have had abortions. Even some who have had multiple abortions. I don't see them as bad people. They don't see it as bad an action as I do because they don't see the baby as alive yet.
I have also seen women who fought the urge to abort, and I've seen their children grow up to be wonderful people. These kids were no different than those aborted babies except for luck of the draw.
Quote:
I don't define life a whole lot differently than you do. what I do define differently is a woman's right to be autonomous over her own body. you do not.
In most situations I'd completely agree that your body is yours. I'm a libertarian. If someone wanted to do hard drugs they can do it. Liberty is one of the fundamental human rights. But it's not the most important one.
I just happen to believe that a person's freedom stops where it hurts another human being. Because at that point you are now infringing on someone else's fundamental right to life.
Quote:
if anyone is being not being "intellectually honest" it is you for refusing to debate the issues that truly are reality for women who abort.
Not sure what you want to debate. I don't deny any reason why a woman would want to abort.
Quote:
until you want to face and discuss that you just continue to repeat the same thing and it hasn't much substance other than you want to protect life. the issue is far more complicated than that.
Situations can be complicated. I understand that.
I just also happen to hold life as the most fundamental human right. So while I understand why some women may choose to abort their babies, it's still disturbing to me.
It becomes extra disturbing when my tax dollars help to fund the facility.
My goal here was mainly to get pro-choicers to stop thinking that pro-lifers desire to control their bodies. That's not the desire at all. The desire is to save a life.
Pro-choicers don't like that in order to save that life, it would mean that they have a decision taken away from them. I can see that argument too.
So my hope is that while we may vehemently disagree about the issue, we at least don't misrepresent the other side's intentions.
I understand why some women would choose abortion. I don't see women who choose abortion as evil. I understand that their definition of life is different than mine, so if they can make a choice to avoid the responsibility of a child, then there can be a lot of reasons.
I have friends who have had abortions. Even some who have had multiple abortions. I don't see them as bad people. They don't see it as bad an action as I do because they don't see the baby as alive yet.
I have also seen women who fought the urge to abort, and I've seen their children grow up to be wonderful people. These kids were no different than those aborted babies except for luck of the draw.
In most situations I'd completely agree that your body is yours. I'm a libertarian. If someone wanted to do hard drugs they can do it. Liberty is one of the fundamental human rights. But it's not the most important one.
I just happen to believe that a person's freedom stops where it hurts another human being. Because at that point you are now infringing on someone else's fundamental right to life.
Not sure what you want to debate. I don't deny any reason why a woman would want to abort.
Situations can be complicated. I understand that.
I just also happen to hold life as the most fundamental human right. So while I understand why some women may choose to abort their babies, it's still disturbing to me.
It becomes extra disturbing when my tax dollars help to fund the facility.
My goal here was mainly to get pro-choicers to stop thinking that pro-lifers desire to control their bodies. That's not the desire at all. The desire is to save a life.
Pro-choicers don't like that in order to save that life, it would mean that they have a decision taken away from them. I can see that argument too.
So my hope is that while we may vehemently disagree about the issue, we at least don't misrepresent the other side's intentions.
we will have to agree to disagree as when you want to "save a life" that is not yours, or your woman's it does become about control. you don't seem to want to admit that.
your tax dollars do not go to abortions. even if they did you get no say in where your tax dollars go unless of course you want to run and be elected to office.
Other than law... why is it too late? Or is the only reason it's too late because of the law?
When Planned Parenthood is able to operate due to my money supporting it, then I should have a say.
When part of my money goes to the government, I believe that I should have a say in how it's spent. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's my responsibility as a tax payer to try.
In your eyes it's not a baby. In my eyes it is. So it's obvious why we disagree.
But I hope that you understand that it's perfectly reasonable and consistent for someone to want to protect life, regardless of where that life is growing. It's my moral responsibility to do what I can.
I will not force you or anyone to do anything. I can only hope that women make the "choice" to not execute their child.
I guess you are free to continue this fight to deny women their right to choose, but one would think there were better things to do than to fight to take away rights from others....but then again, I am a liberal, I am not a fan of taking away rights.
No, you shouldn't be able to have any say in how Planned Parenthood does their business unless you are a shareholder or someone within Planned Parenthood making those decisions. We all pay taxes, but we don't get to decide where that money goes and it will always go to something you don't like.
If you wish to have a say in how your taxes are spent, make sure to vote because it is the representatives that make those decision.
Yes, it seems we disagree on what your opinion of a baby is. Though factually it is called a fetus until birth.
Quote:
fe·tus
ˈfēdəs/
noun
an unborn offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.
Sure, if that makes you feel better, you can seek out and try to protect every bit of life that is out there....that kind of task is quite unrealistic though, but good for you for thinking you can do that. I can only assume you have fostered and raised hundreds of children?
Again, women are not choosing to "execute their children." Why do you feel the need to rely on nonsense hyperbole to try to make your point? Do you think it makes you feel better to judge others and their choices they make?
we will have to agree to disagree as when you want to "save a life" that is not yours, or your woman's it does become about control. you don't seem to want to admit that.
If you read my post, you'd see that I said, "Pro-choicers don't like that in order to save that life, it would mean that they have a decision taken away from them."
Not sure what you think I'm not admitting.
I'm just saying that it's not the focus or desire of pro-lifers to control your body. It's a byproduct of trying to save a life.
Just like if a parent wanted to kill their 1 day old child. If I stopped them, I am taking away their choice. But my focus wasn't about their choice. The removal of their choice was a byproduct of me saving the child's life.
Quote:
your tax dollars do not go to abortions.
Yes they do. They fund the facility that does it.
Quote:
even if they did you get no say in where your tax dollars go unless of course you want to run and be elected to office.
Sure I get a say. It's called voting. It's contacting my representative and telling them to represent my view when they vote.
I guess you are free to continue this fight to deny women their right to choose, but one would think there were better things to do than to fight to take away rights from others....but then again, I am a liberal, I am not a fan of taking away rights.
You are purposely misrepresenting my arguments.
Why the dishonesty? Is this how you must frame things? You feel the need to misrepresent another person's goals?
Have I accused you of being full of bloodlust and wanting to murder? No. I've acknowledged that we define life differently.
I am not for limiting anyone's rights unless their actions violate the fundamental rights of others. The most fundamental right is life.
Quote:
No, you shouldn't be able to have any say in how Planned Parenthood does their business unless you are a shareholder or someone within Planned Parenthood making those decisions. We all pay taxes, but we don't get to decide where that money goes and it will always go to something you don't like.
What do you think the purpose of representative government is?
Quote:
If you wish to have a say in how your taxes are spent, make sure to vote because it is the representatives that make those decision.
Wait... didn't you just say that I had no say?
Quote:
Yes, it seems we disagree on what your opinion of a baby is. Though factually it is called a fetus until birth.
Does calling it a fetus change the fact that it's alive?
Quote:
Sure, if that makes you feel better, you can seek out and try to protect every bit of life that is out there....that kind of task is quite unrealistic though, but good for you for thinking you can do that. I can only assume you have fostered and raised hundreds of children?
I've helped raise foster children. I also have children of my own. I also work with disadvantaged youth.
I do what I can. I know that I can't save everyone. And I can't force anyone to choose life. But I can try.
Quote:
Again, women are not choosing to "execute their children." Why do you feel the need to rely on nonsense hyperbole to try to make your point? Do you think it makes you feel better to judge others and their choices they make?
I am letting you know what it's like from my point of view.
I know that the woman isn't knowingly choosing to do such a thing. If she saw the fetus as a live baby she'd have to be a sicko to go through with an abortion. So I know that most don't see the fetus as a baby.
But from my view, I hope to stop executions. Executions conducted by people who don't realize that they are taking a life.
If you read my post, you'd see that I said, "Pro-choicers don't like that in order to save that life, it would mean that they have a decision taken away from them."
Not sure what you think I'm not admitting.
I'm just saying that it's not the focus or desire of pro-lifers to control your body. It's a byproduct of trying to save a life.
Just like if a parent wanted to kill their 1 day old child. If I stopped them, I am taking away their choice. But my focus wasn't about their choice. The removal of their choice was a byproduct of me saving the child's life.
Yes they do. They fund the facility that does it.
Sure I get a say. It's called voting. It's contacting my representative and telling them to represent my view when they vote.
I'm just saying that it's not the focus or desire of pro-lifers to control your body. It's a byproduct of trying to save a life.
"a byproduct". taking away a woman's rights is just a "byproduct" of your self righteous judgmental ideas.
keep spinning your wheels legal abortion is here to stay.
Why the dishonesty? Is this how you must frame things? You feel the need to misrepresent another person's goals?
Have I accused you of being full of bloodlust and wanting to murder? No. I've acknowledged that we define life differently.
I am not for limiting anyone's rights unless their actions violate the fundamental rights of others. The most fundamental right is life.
What do you think the purpose of representative government is?
Wait... didn't you just say that I had no say?
Does calling it a fetus change the fact that it's alive?
I've helped raise foster children. I also have children of my own. I also work with disadvantaged youth.
I do what I can. I know that I can't save everyone. And I can't force anyone to choose life. But I can try.
I am letting you know what it's like from my point of view.
I know that the woman isn't knowingly choosing to do such a thing. If she saw the fetus as a live baby she'd have to be a sicko to go through with an abortion. So I know that most don't see the fetus as a baby.
But from my view, I hope to stop executions. Executions conducted by people who don't realize that they are taking a life.
The only dishonesty here is with you, I am just calling you out on what you want. You want to take away a woman's right to choose because they should be birthing every baby rather than making up their own decisions.....do you think women are too stupid to make that choice for themselves?
I am well aware what a representative government is, though I hope you know that it doesn't mean you get to make the personal choices on where your tax dollars go and don't go.
No, it doesn't change the fact that it is alive because the woman that is hosting the fetus is also alive. Without the host, the fetus would not be alive.
So basically you can't force people to choose life, but you can try to force people.....that is what we keep telling you, you wish to take away a woman's choice.
Oh I am well aware your point of view is seen through a clouded morality that is only accurate to yourself and hyperbole.
I'm just saying that it's not the focus or desire of pro-lifers to control your body. It's a byproduct of trying to save a life.
"a byproduct". taking away a woman's rights is just a "byproduct" of your self righteous judgmental ideas.
keep spinning your wheels legal abortion is here to stay.
What have I been judgmental about?
And if someone believes that unborn child to be alive, don't you think its their moral obligation to be against that life being extinguished due to choice?
Do you not see that?
And that symbol for the legal ability to kill is pretty disturbing. Most women I know that had abortions didn't look at it with joy.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
