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I really have no problem with removing these statues but if slavery is the only issue when do we start destroying ancient Roman, Greek and Egyptian statues?
The Confederacy did have a national flag. In fact it had three, as it was changed several times.
Thank you for the correction.
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Originally Posted by Rambler123
I get a sad chuckle out of it. Proud Americans - often those in the same part of the nation where this is happening - love to laugh at "stupid people" in other nations who can't forget past grievances and hatreds... and here they are flying the flag of a failed rebellion 150+ years after the fact.
I get a chuckle out of the the shrill calls that historical statues be taken down and parks renamed. These statues, masoleums and parks have existed for generations, yet the politicians screaming for their removal only became "offended" when it became politically expedient to do so. Ironically, many of those on whose behalf they want to remove the "offensive" monuments had walked by those monuments for years with out concern.
In their maoist moments, they forget the complexities of the era. For example:
-Beuregard's statue in New Orleans: Beauregard, a creole was black by legal definition, owned slaves and was a CSA general. How many black generals did the union have?
- Lee's statue in New Orleans: Lee was so disloyal to the US that the federal's offered him a commission as a general. Lee had freed his slaves voluntarily, yet the wife of General Grant still owned hers (hers were also exempt the Emancipation Proclamation)
- Forrest's tomb / park in Memphis: Forrest was only semi litererate (at best), yet was one of the war's best generals and also a a commerical slave seller. One of the first of many men he personally killed was a black man who had raped a black woman. He permitted his troops to massacare federal troops on one occasion (both black and white troops were killed). Yet, he had black confederates serving as his bodyguards. After the war, he was invited to address the forerunner of the NAACP and was received with applause. During his address, he strongly hinted that he had relations with black women in the past.
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Originally Posted by Old Guard
I really have no problem with removing these statues but if slavery is the only issue when do we start destroying ancient Roman, Greek and Egyptian statues?
Or statues of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Andrew Jackson, and Sam Houston? All were commerical level slave owners. Benjamin Franklin owned more than a few, but less than alot.
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Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415
The only "problem" I have with some in the South is how proud they are of their history. I can't see why anyone would be proud of seceding from your country in the name of slavery, so you can keep enslaving people of another race, oppressing them, and seeing them as literally less than human .
They are probably proud of the totality of their history. Heck, are you proud of the United States and perhaps proud of the Union war effort despite the following:
- IL, OH and IN had banned both slavery and free blacks from their states
- Despite a war raging, federal troops and unionist militia still found time to massacare Native Americans in MN, CO and NM
- The removal of the five civilized tribes was a Federal program.
- Lincolns great Emancipation Order never freed slaves in KY, WV, DE, MO, MD. It also exempted slaves in DC, slaves owned by absentee union officers slave owned by pro union Indians and slaves owned by anybody willing to take a union loyalty oath.
- New Yorkers celebrated the Emancipation Order with riots.
Nobody's trying to erase history or to pretend that the historical events didn't happen.
Nevertheless, there is no factual doubt that the sole reason for the attempted secession and the Civil War was that the southern states wanted to preserve slavery. Anyone who claims otherwise has either failed to study the history, including the legislative enactments in which those states proudly proclaimed that slavery was their cause, or is just lying.
I have no doubt that it is possible to fight bravely for an evil cause. Nevertheless, the traitors who fought to preserve slavery deserve no honor from people who know recognize the evils of slavery.
Nobody's trying to erase history or to pretend that the historical events didn't happen.
Nevertheless, there is no factual doubt that the sole reason for the attempted secession and the Civil War was that the southern states wanted to preserve slavery. Anyone who claims otherwise has either failed to study the history, including the legislative enactments in which those states proudly proclaimed that slavery was their cause, or is just lying.
I have no doubt that it is possible to fight bravely for an evil cause. Nevertheless, the traitors who fought to preserve slavery deserve no honor from people who know recognize the evils of slavery.
I don't think many people seriously argue the motive of the south.
But there is this:
While the south lost in its struggle to preserve slavery, there is ample evidence today that the north won in the effort to preserve racism.
You see the War as a battle for Slavery but that's not how most in the South view that War. Virtually no one is proud of the history of Slavery (maybe 10K KKK members is about it). Southerners are proud of their culture and have had to stick together through a prolonged period of discrimination against the South and Southerners that has lasted for well over 100 years.
The culture is one thing, but I must point out a few pertinent facts:
1. The entire culture of the South--the plantations and the beautiful houses, the supposedly gracious manners, the prosperity--all of them were made possibly by enslaving human beings.
2. The claim of discrimination against the South for over a century is absurd. After defeating Reconstruction the South was able to maintain freed blacks and their descendants in oppression and virtual slavery for almost a century, and the so-called discrimination you are complaining about consists of things like the end of Jim Crow, federal enforcement of voting rights, abolition of school segregation, and other measures designed to overcome the South's culture of slavery and racial oppression.
3. There are vastly more apologists for slavery than you claim. Every time a discussion of slavery and the cause (I don't say "causes" because slavery was the only cause) arises here there is no shortage of people who argue that we should have just allowed slavery to disappear on its own. This is nothing but a prescription to continue the practice of slavery throughout the South for the then-unlimited future.
4. I'll just say one thing about "states' rights". Those clamoring the loudest for states' rights, whether in terms of the institution of slavery or in the institution of racial oppression that followed it, were remarkably quiet when Northern states took action to prevent the enforcement of the fugitive slave laws in their territory. Apparently states' rights only go one way.
I don't think many people seriously argue the motive of the south.
But there is this:
While the south lost in its struggle to preserve slavery, there is ample evidence today that the north won in the effort to preserve racism.
So you think in the history of the civil rights movement it was mainly the southern states who were in favor of civil rights and ending racism and mostly the northern states who were opposed to civil rights and in favor of perpetuating racism?
I have no doubt that it is possible to fight bravely for an evil cause. Nevertheless, the traitors who fought to preserve slavery deserve no honor from people who know recognize the evils of slavery.
The confederates never attempted to over throw any government, nor did they attempt to invade another nation. Instead, they tried to walk away from a government using the authority given to them in the US constitution. They only became "traitors" when a rival political faction voided their right to leave. In doing so, the north became a domestic enemy of the US constitution.
Sure, the Confederates wanted to leave because of slavery. The reason for leaving, however, is not important. It could have been because they did not like the decor in the White House. The secession of states was- and is still permitted under the US constitution. Secession is not permitted, however, by the federal government.
Political correctness aside, why not simply sell or donate the statues/monuments to a museum, municipality or private entity that wants them? This would preserve history, please residents of New Orleans and provide an easy resolution to a divisive political issue. If the majority of residents of New Orleans don't want them anymore then why argue? Isn't the whole concept of state's rights the principal of protecting the wishes of the people?
The confederates never attempted to over throw any government, nor did they attempt to invade another nation. Instead, they tried to walk away from a government using the authority given to them in the US constitution. They only became "traitors" when a rival political faction voided their right to leave. In doing so, the north became a domestic enemy of the US constitution.
Sure, the Confederates wanted to leave because of slavery. The reason for leaving, however, is not important. It could have been because they did not like the decor in the White House. The secession of states was- and is still permitted under the US constitution. Secession is not permitted, however, by the federal government.
Sure, its permitted. But its permitted under law by act of Congress, alone. States may not independently declare themselves free and sovereign because they feel like it.
The secession of states was- and is still permitted under the US constitution. Secession is not permitted, however, by the federal government.
This is selective reading of the Constitution. Try again.
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