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Yeah? So now we deny that there is an argument over when life begins? Okay, fine I am glad that we all agree life begins at conception.
There is no argument over when life begins, and there never has been...period...at least none having to do with abortion.
I actually would guess some people would say life begins before conception, if we view sex cells as alive (which at least some people seem too...although I'm not sure how scientifically valid that is).
What you're perhaps talking about is the argument about when personhood begins. That's more relevant.
No one cares whether or not we define life as beginning at conception or not though.
That's an important difference, because "life" is a scientific term with a more specific meaning than what a "person" is, which is merely a social term.
Everyone on Earth agrees that life either begins at, or before conception...or somewhere around that time though.
At what point can a fetus live outside the human body without medical technology? Can you just remove a fetus from a woman and rap it in a blanket it will survive at 12,24,36 weeks?
Abortion should be illegal for conservatives and mandatory for liberals.
So no doubt you feel a very deep, heartfelt hatred against liberals. I'm a liberal so feel hatred against me all you want. I don't give a damn how you feel against me.
That would be those irrelevant science-related semantics I mentioned earlier. It's inaccurate to call that science.
What you've done is the equivalent of me saying "the word penguin starts with a p! That's science!" (That is not science, because no research nor scientific procedure led to that conclusion.)
There is nothing in science that tells us whether or not it's okay to end a life at day 7 after conception.
Now, what you can say science tells us about are aspects of the development of life that help us determine when abortions should and should not be done. For example, I could say, "fetuses appear to experience pain by X time period, and I'm going to use that as an argument for when abortions should be illegal" but even in that instance, science is not directly telling us when abortion is, and is not okay. Science has nothing specifically to say about ethics, or what our behaviors should be. Science can only tell what is, not what should be. Claiming that science has anything specific to say about what should be (which you've done) is incredibly inaccurate. Therefore you cannot accurately claim that your views about when abortion is and is not okay are "science."
So, in other words, you can accurately say that science tells us when a zygote becomes a human...but you cannot accurately say that science tells us how we should behave as a ramification of that. Otherwise you'll be twisting the original purpose behind the scientific classification of certain life forms as humans. Scientific classifications are pretty much never determined in order to influence laws or ethical behavior. When people use scientific classifications as an argument for why people should behave in certain ways, or how laws should work, they're typically doing something wrong/nonsensical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clintnon
There is no argument over when life begins, and there never has been...period...at least none having to do with abortion.
I actually would guess some people would say life begins before conception, if we view sex cells as alive (which at least some people seem too...although I'm not sure how scientifically valid that is).
What you're perhaps talking about is the argument about when personhood begins. That's more relevant.
No one cares whether or not we define life as beginning at conception or not though.
That's an important difference, because "life" is a scientific term with a more specific meaning than what a "person" is, which is merely a social term.
Everyone on Earth agrees that life either begins at, or before conception...or somewhere around that time though.
Okay, so you admit that, scientifically, a human life begins at or before conception (I'll stick with the scientific definition of 7 days post-conception). So, what you're arguing is that a human life is not a "person" until a specific time, up until which point it's okay to abort. So, what's your definition of a human person?
Okay, so you admit that, scientifically, a human life begins at or before conception (I'll stick with the scientific definition of 7 days post-conception). So, what you're arguing is that a human life is not a "person" until a specific time, up until which point it's okay to abort. So, what's your definition of a human person?
I'm not arguing what a "person" is or is not. My definition of "personhood" has nothing to do with my opinions about abortion. My opinions about abortion are complex and related to issues such as whether or not the abortion helps or harms the aborted, how it impacts the parents, and in what ways.
Here's a good summary of my views I made earlier, if you're interested. This is as close as I can get to concisely giving you the answer I think you're looking for. Below you will find a proper, responsible way to think about abortion...which treats the organism as what it is, unlike your system, which just arbitrarily determines how organisms should be treated regardless of its traits, and would wreak havoc on our society as a result, totally pointlessely:
No..there are differences, although I think more people see the difference between a baby and a fetus as being larger than it actually is.
The way I see it there are four stages of development we should pay attention to in order to make our laws. Stage 1 is the stage that exists before the fetus is capable of experiencing pain. Before this point, there is no way abortion can be a negative thing for the fetus. All abortion, everywhere on Earth, should be allowed all throughout this stage, in my opinion. The problem is that not everyone agrees on when that stage is. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists say fetuses won't be able to feel pain until after 24 weeks. So does the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the U.K. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists is a massive organization with dozens of thousands of members. That said, some people disagree with them. As a layperson, the earliest I've ever heard of anyone who stands a chance of knowing what they're talking about say that fetuses might be able to experience pain is 12 or 13 weeks, I believe it was, but they also said that the chance of fetuses experiencing pain before about 13 weeks...or maybe it was 12, is so low that it's not worth concerning ourselves with. That study also didn't say that the ACOG's view of fetuses not feeling pain before 24 weeks was wrong...just that it might be wrong. Also, some people argue that fetuses won't feel pain until later than 24 weeks...so it's hard to say and I'm not educated enough to know for certain.
Stage 2, in my mind begins before birth but after the fetus can experience pain. After the fetus can experience pain from an abortion, it actually has something to lose from having its life ended. This, I'd say, is the first time in which it could be claimed to be reasonable to consider restricting at least some abortions. That said, we'd still need to weigh the potential pain caused by an abortion against the potential suffering stemming from enduring whatever negatives are associated with being born, especially if there are birth defects, genetic disorders, poverty, or parents who really don't want kids involved, because those circumstances are all easily avoidable if the pregnancy is just ended now and another baby is had later.
Stage 3, in my mind, begins after birth. While it's true that a born baby doesn't understand death any better than a fetus...most problems for born babies having to do with parents who don't want a baby can be solved through adoption. Furthermore, at this point the baby has already gone through the likely unpleasant process of birth, and if its life is ended that will have all been for nothing. I'd say that'd be an arguement for banning the casual euthanization of babies, even if done painlessly.
I'd say stage four would begin as soon as the child is capable of being harmed by death. That would require a certain type of mental state that, in some way, involves an understanding of the future.
The best pro-life arguments always have to do with the fact that it's difficult to tell exactly when pain can be experienced, or what pain even is to organisms that think dramatically differently than we do.
What about the pain the new baby boy feels when being circumcised? Probably most pro-life or pro-birth people worry about it.
There is a huge movement against circumcision. Been ongoing for years.
Why are you fighting so hard to rationalize mothers killing their babies?
That's what abortion is. A mother killing her baby.
Get an answer directly from the source. Why don't you take that question up with the formerly pregnant women who got abortions? Since it's none of my business and not my baby, I don't agonize much over it.
What about the pain the new baby boy feels when being circumcised? Probably most pro-life or pro-birth people worry about it.
I just read after about a 5 second search that there can be health benefits to circumcision. Therefore, I don't know enough about that to make a comment. It's a topic I've pretty much ignored...which is a personal flaw...but we all have our weaknesses.
There is a huge movement against circumcision. Been ongoing for years.
Why are you fighting so hard to rationalize mothers killing their babies?
That's what abortion is. A mother killing her baby.
Correct. An embryo, fetus, etc., are all parts of the human life cycle. It's a human life.
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