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Pro-life........we keep being told by the left that we need to increase our population growth as we are short of workers, taxpayers etc. blah, blah, blah all the while they want abortion on demand. Their answer is to import millions of foreigners and have them procreate on our soil instead. Most of whom don't even share our culture and language. They talk out of both sides of their mouths.
Importing millions of workers makes a hell of a lot more sense than forcing people to give birth. I find it rather odd that you see being around people with slightly different cultures than you as worse than forced birth. There is no talking out of both sides of their mouths. There is just an ultra-rational mentality that you should share.
its not entirely "pro-life" its certainly NOT pro-choice.
my argument is "protect the innocent."
period.
But your perspective shows no sign that you have an interest in protecting the innocent...so I guess the issue must be more complicated than you think.
Exactly. This thread is not only about late-term abortions, although that has come up in the conversation. An embryo is a life, even if it's not yet a baby. I would prefer that no one have an abortion. If they do, I would prefer that it's done in the first trimester. I'm aware that the world is not going to operate via Mightyqueen's preferences, though, and that life is not black/white, right/wrong, good/evil.
But as has been said time and again, women have been aborting their pregnancies since our ancestors lived in caves. They used plants with poisonous properties, they used pointy sticks or otherwise injured themselves. Or they had unqualified and unscrupulous persons help them abort in unsanitary ways that result in infection or bleeding to death. Until we come up with some realistic way of never having any unwanted pregnancies occur--which is not realistic, but FEWER could be--and a way to keep women from terminating pregnancies, then a civilized country has to keep it legal and safe for a woman to abort, because they are going to do it whether it is legal or not. Not wanting to bear a child should not be punishable by the potential death of a woman.
And just like almost all of our society does...you're not including a few important factors here.
#1. Organisms can benefit from death. You can't just depict abortion as being completely un-helpful to the aborted. That's not been established yet.
#2. We live in a society in which eating fast food is depicted as perfectly fine, while believing that individual rights and personal freedoms are extremely important. Given that fetuses experience the world exactly as animals do...I have no idea why pro-lifers are not all vegan communists, because the factory farm industry does way more harm to organisms with animalistic minds than abortion does.
I think that's difficult for people to understand because we've normalized the thinking that there's something intrinsically important about human life to the extent that we don't even question it anymore...despite, I'd argue, that mentality being firmly rooted in delusion.
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Also, if you have an abortion anytime before pain can be experienced...there is no cost to that to the aborted. Therefore, restricting abortion can simultaneously be a government-condoned form of torture for the mother, as well as a means of harming the fetus, depending on just what sorts of controls we're talking about.
Most likely, you won't understand that...but I've gone over that enough times with other people that it's getting tiring. I'll just see if you have objections to those statements that you feel like mentioning and respond as needed. I apologize for not being more descriptive...but I have been typing an awful lot.
Feel free to explain to me how insane and nonsensical I am. I'll explain why that is untrue in my response.
#1 : Feel free to poll all the aborted fetuses and ask their opinion on losing the "right to live."
Oh, right, my bad.
OKAY, poll the folks around you and see if they'd prefer to never have been born...
Very few, eh?
Life must be something "valuable" for folks to cling to it, so hard.
As to #2 - respecting sentient and sapient life doesn't mean not consuming other lifeforms, like fungus, yeasts, vegetables, fruits, fishes, crustaceans, fowl, and even mammals.
- - -
Waxing philosophical, the meaning of life is life itself. Dead things have no meaning.
The goal of all life is more abundant life.
And life is an endless struggle against extinction by a hostile inanimate universe.
Don't help it along by killing immature beings, because of "inconvenience" or "privacy."
And if you think that there are other species that have a higher cognitive function than humans, please present your candidates.
Frankly, any society that kills its helpless immature members is not civilized, IMHO.
. . . . . .
Good advice : Try to be the kind of person you’d prefer to spend eternity with, rather than avoid. Either way, you make your own heaven or hell. And if there is a sovereign of the universe, in that realm of timeless eternal thought, your own intrinsic nature will determine if you can associate with or be denied access to that being. Since like attracts like, being dissimilar will exile one from the other.
I may be wrong, but feticide (intentional destruction of a human fetus) is still a crime, and it seems to me that in that realm, one may find oneself on the "Group W Bench."
(Obscure reference to "Alice's Restaurant.")
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : "The Secret - There is no Secret"
Snippet from "The Martian Chronicles" mini-series.
Best Pro Life argument? The baby being aborted could have been the one who would grow up to find the cure for cancer or AIDS......
Best Pro Choice argument. Women were doing it anyways and were dying in back alleys from being butchered. Best to keep it legal and keep them safe. Either way, sadly, most women I know end up regretting it and feeling guilty about what they done decades later.
Best Pro Life argument? The baby being aborted could have been the one who would grow up to find the cure for cancer or AIDS......
Best Pro Choice argument. Women were doing it anyways and were dying in back alleys from being butchered. Best to keep it legal and keep them safe. Either way, sadly, most women I know end up regretting it and feeling guilty about what they done decades later.
Most women I knew who had abortions were teens, but over the years, I've met three who very casually mentioned being in college and having abortions and had no regrets. Two never had children by choice and the third has two adult children now.
I had a friend who had at least six that I know of. She eventually had one son. I think she carries some regrets, but her pregnancies were always the result of stupidity. Not getting her bc filled, taking someone else's pills because she forgot hers, having sex with a previous husband while living with the current one who'd had a vasectomy. Alcohol use had a lot to do with it, which I suspect is not an uncommon factor in accidental pregnancies.
Most women I knew who had abortions were teens, but over the years, I've met three who very casually mentioned being in college and having abortions and had no regrets. Two never had children by choice and the third has two adult children now.
I had a friend who had at least six that I know of. She eventually had one son. I think she carries some regrets, but her pregnancies were always the result of stupidity. Not getting her bc filled, taking someone else's pills because she forgot hers, having sex with a previous husband while living with the current one who'd had a vasectomy. Alcohol use had a lot to do with it, which I suspect is not an uncommon factor in accidental pregnancies.
No doubt alcohol is a huge factor in unwanted pregnancy, just like it is in other unwise decisions. Young women are binge drinking way more than they used to.
We’re talking a lot here about irresponsibility and how that plays into abortion rates. There are people that just can’t manage their lives no matter how much you threaten them with dire consequences. But there are also people who grow up ashamed about sex, ignorant of how to properly manage reproduction, and who would rather have unprotected sex and take the chance than go into a clinic and talk about sex with a stranger.
Regardless, I don’t know how one keeps irresponsible or naive or just straight up immature women responsible for the well being of the developing foetus if they’re being railroaded into carrying the pregnancy. It’s all good in theory, having them give the baby up for adoption, but how many of those babies are going to have been affected by drugs, alcohol, tobacco in the womb? If you don’t want the baby it doesn’t follow that you’re going to make all those sacrifices you have to make when you’re pregnant.
We have long term BC solutions that would solve a lot of theses issues, in a practical sense. If we dropped the stigma around young women getting implants, IUD’s - that kind of long term no drama BC, encouraged teenagers to get it, not assuming they’re going to have sex and not encouraging such, just being practical about it, and non judgmental - a lot of these issues wouldn’t even occur. You’d have to consciously make the decision to remove the BC to get pregnant.
If getting BC was a rite of passage like getting your license, and being open about sex and its consequences was the norm, and as a society we stopped judging people for being sexually active, many pregnancies wouldn’t happen in the first place.
No doubt alcohol is a huge factor in unwanted pregnancy, just like it is in other unwise decisions. Young women are binge drinking way more than they used to.
We’re talking a lot here about irresponsibility and how that plays into abortion rates. There are people that just can’t manage their lives no matter how much you threaten them with dire consequences. But there are also people who grow up ashamed about sex, ignorant of how to properly manage reproduction, and who would rather have unprotected sex and take the chance than go into a clinic and talk about sex with a stranger.
Regardless, I don’t know how one keeps irresponsible or naive or just straight up immature women responsible for the well being of the developing foetus if they’re being railroaded into carrying the pregnancy. It’s all good in theory, having them give the baby up for adoption, but how many of those babies are going to have been affected by drugs, alcohol, tobacco in the womb? If you don’t want the baby it doesn’t follow that you’re going to make all those sacrifices you have to make when you’re pregnant.
We have long term BC solutions that would solve a lot of theses issues, in a practical sense. If we dropped the stigma around young women getting implants, IUD’s - that kind of long term no drama BC, encouraged teenagers to get it, not assuming they’re going to have sex and not encouraging such, just being practical about it, and non judgmental - a lot of these issues wouldn’t even occur. You’d have to consciously make the decision to remove the BC to get pregnant.
If getting BC was a rite of passage like getting your license, and being open about sex and its consequences was the norm, and as a society we stopped judging people for being sexually active, many pregnancies wouldn’t happen in the first place.
You bring up good points, FR, and I said earlier in this thread that I'd like to see more discussion on ways to minimize unwanted pregnancies in the first place, which in turn would reduce the number of abortions, but that wasn't really the subject of this thread.
For example, I read an article by a social worker from a poor neighborhood in DC who works at a clinic. She said there are teenagers there having babies, and the great-grandmother is in her late forties. It's a generational issue. Sometimes they do have abortions as well, of course. These girls have no thought whatsoever of going to college or getting a job. It's not even on their radar. Those are things that people outside their world do. Nor do they have any concept of being able to say "No" to your "man" when he wants to have sex.
I had a coworker whose teenaged daughter had a boyfriend, and she said a few times, "I told my daughter, you'd better keep your legs together!" Really? That's the extent of your birth control discussion with your teenager?
Of course, the girl got pregnant in her senior year of high school. The mother was furious and talking about it at work. "I TOLD her to keep her legs together!" The daughter ended up keeping the baby, but it could just as easily have been a quiet abortion. It could have even MORE easily been dealt with realistically with a trip to the OB/GYN long before it became a problem.
I might start such a discussion in Great Debates, where more factual and reasonable dialogue is a requirement.
Call it Pro Life Vs Pro Death......in this day and age no adult, baring rape, need never get pregnant. Birth control is too readily available, cheap and effective. Use a couple of them at the same time and it is almost impossible to get pregnant. Of course we have convinced too many generations that having any personal responsibility is just not necessary.
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