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Agreed it was wrong to place any flag at this memorial except perhaps as representative of those killed and injured, even then I don't know since most people tend to put national differences aside when it comes to the respect for the innocent families of these people from all over the world killed or injured by such acts of terrorism.
Part of me is interested to know the rationale behind placing either flag, but most of me really doesn't want to go there...
I think someone of any nationality should be able to place his country's flag at the memorial in support of the victims, whether there were any victims from his country or not, and perhaps the Israelis have a history that supports more empathy than most.
The difficulty with the replacement or covering of the flag of Israel with the Palestinian flag is that it smells of support for the terrorists. That is what is disturbing to me.
1. I do know better, which was my point in saying that. You assumed I don't understand people that are the targets of bigotry, which would obviously be false since I am black.
Thanks, I can at least make better sense about where you are coming from now. Thanks for elaborating.
I can't really know what you understand or to what extent. Again, I can only judge based on your comments, but you should know that a person can be both black and bigoted. What you claim as "obviously false" is actually not so obvious nor false for the reasons you think so full-proof.
Again, bigotry and such tendencies, behaviors, beliefs are not the function of one's skin, and very often the victim of abuse can turn into just as bad if not worse an abuser as well. You probably also know (or should know) that "an eye for an eye" mentality is very much human nature, and unfortunately only makes most people blind.
We often say "do onto others as you would have them do onto you," but what we actually do instead is something else entirely, especially when it comes to the likes of bigotry.
2. I'm inclined toward bigotry, even though I've been the target of bigotry multiple times and I have numerous Muslim friends that I talk about these issues with. In fact, one of my friends/coworkers has a Turkish family, follows Muslim rules and is one of the most critical people I've ever heard speak about Muslims. Would he be a bigot?
Right, as I explained as well, but no! Your Muslim friend critical of Muslim rules is not a bigot just because of that criticism, not necessarily anyway.
Ah Hell, you decide...
big·ot·ed
adjective
having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
3. I deal with this kind of thing all the time. For an example, I'm very critical of behavior exhibited by black folks. I get criticized by other black folks, who think I'm some kind of self-hater or Uncle Tom. But by that logic, Malcolm X would be an Uncle Tom since he criticized MLK and the entire Civil Rights movement. Anyway, what I'm saying (and what I always say) is that we can't just pretend that there's no problem and sweep everything under the rug as if that makes the dirt disappear. It's disingenuous.
Critical of black folks or SOME black folks, and for what?
With all due respect, I think you are confused.
It is very much okay, in fact perfectly healthy to be critical, objectively critical, of right vs wrong, better vs worse.
It is when you describe your criticism as based on the color of someone's skin or ethnic background or country of origin or religion that begins the problem, instead of being critical of the specific thinking or action or belief, regardless how someone looks or where they come from.
You really need this explained to you?
I can tell you this, the more you talk in terms of racial or ethnic profile rather than specifically why you are critical, the more you will be viewed a self-hater, racist, bigot, and rightfully so. You caused me to think the same thing by way of how you express your criticism.
There are most certainly bad black people, just like there are bad white people, but how intelligent are we to suggest that all black people are bad or all white people? We need to distinguish good people from bad people, and again they come in all shapes and colors. That's not a function of DNA!
You, me, people should not even need to take into account our racial or cultural differences when it comes to proper criticism where/when properly warranted, right? We don't need to be bigoted to argue right from wrong, in fact quite the opposite!
Nothing need be swept "under the rug" when it comes to such judgement and critical thinking, on the contrary. It's just the dumb inflamotory rhetoric that gets in the way.
Of course it's support for the terrorists. What else would it mean.
Just want to make sure I understand the obvious here...
Someone puts the flag of Israel at this memorial for reasons unknown.
Old woman comes along and replaces that flag with a Palestinian flag.
Is the obvious conclusion that Palestinians are the terrorists responsible for this bombing?
If that's obvious, this woman is no doubt in custody right now!
Or who knows, under questioning, she might explain she lost her entire family in Palestine to similar violence, and is now in Brussels thinking she might escape that chaos, or maybe she too wants to show that peaceful Palestinians are also in sorrow, or...?
Right, must be she supports terrorism.
Or maybe the whole flag thing was not a good idea in the first place, and maybe what is obvious to some is a matter for police in Brussels to judge, or maybe the Palestinians are the terrorists, and if so, they're not so hard to find!
Round them all up, take 'em out, hang 'em all, before the next act of terrorism!
I can't really know what you understand or to what extent. Again, I can only judge based on your comments, but you should know that a person can be both black and bigoted. What you claim as "obviously false" is actually not so obvious nor false for the reasons you think so full-proof.
I'm very aware black folks can be bigoted. I explained multiple times already that I know how it is to be the target of bigotry because of my race, which you assumed I didn't understand when you initially responded to me. The fact that I'm black makes it obviously false that I don't understand what it is to be the target of bigotry. And it's "fool-proof".
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
Right, as I explained as well, but no! Your Muslim friend critical of Muslim rules is not a bigot just because of that criticism, not necessarily anyway.
My Muslim friend cannot be bigoted against himself. He also understands being the target of bigotry, yet is critical of Islam. Do you see what I'm getting at?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe
With all due respect, I think you are confused.
It is when you describe your criticism as based on the color of someone's skin or ethnic background or country of origin or religion that begins the problem, instead of being critical of the specific thinking or action or belief, regardless how someone looks or where they come from.
I can tell you this, the more you talk in terms of racial or ethnic profile rather than specifically why you are critical, the more you will be viewed a self-hater, racist, bigot, and rightfully so. You caused me to think the same thing by way of how you express your criticism.
With all due respect, I think you're the confused one. And I don't expect you to understand.
I'm not critical because of race; that's idiotic. How can I be a self-hater (if I enjoy being black), racist (if I discourage others from making blanket statements about races), or a bigot (I'm very open-minded)? But I'm also not going to sit here and write a thesis explaining everything. So let's just agree to disagree. I'm not a bigot, and you're not an apologist. It was nice talking to you.
Anyway, what I'm saying (and what I always say) is that we can't just pretend that there's no problem and sweep everything under the rug as if that makes the dirt disappear. It's disingenuous.
I always say that "agreeing to disagree" is a lot like kissing one's sister...
You are correct to point out that you probably do understand bigotry if you are black, though I am not sure to what extent anyone really understands bigotry, or whether they know if they too are a bigot, regardless the color of their skin or where they are from. I leave the definition of bigotry to speak for itself, you and everyone else to judge for themselves.
I don't mind dropping the discussion, and I am no more with the time or inclination to write a thesis about this either. Doesn't matter in the least of course. Feel free to have a look at my "Cement Theory" thread for more about that...
I would just point out that I am still confused by your comment quoted above. I maintain that regardless our understandings in these regards, we need not "sweep everything under the rug" or anything.
We should call out wrong doing wherever, whenever it is appropriate and worthwhile, regardless whether the person doing wrong is black or white, Christian or Muslim, Protestant or Jew, male or female, in a position of authority or not, Obama or Trump.
What we should NOT do is express our judgements in these regards in terms of profiling, generalizing, racism; demonizing a broader group of people by association with extremists from that group.
Surely we can agree on these basics as everyone should, or what is there otherwise to disagree about?
My Muslim friend cannot be bigoted against himself. He also understands being the target of bigotry, yet is critical of Islam. Do you see what I'm getting at?
With all due respect, I think you're the confused one. And I don't expect you to understand.
Venturing into the realm of being "bigoted against himself" most definitely leaves me the confused one, but again I think we can agree (or should) that just because someone has been the victim of bigotry, or not, regardless, they can surely be critical of their faith, nothing wrong with that! Of course! Even bigoted (though something wrong with that).
If that's been what you are getting at, I surely didn't mean to suggest otherwise...
Again to clarify still further, it would be necessary to understand why your friend is critical of Islam and how he expresses that criticism before anyone can judge whether your friend is right or wrong to think/do as he does. Hell, he can join the crowd when it comes to being critical of his religion! Add all the other people who might claim to be critical of religion in general, even their own, and your friend is not exactly unique in this regard.
What becomes bigotry, however, (and wrong) is when we assume all Muslims (or any other group of people) all think the same way, are all deserving of the same criticism, regardless what they believe personally.
Example (and/or you tell me): the incarceration rate for black males is proportionally higher than it is for white males. Employer therefore decides blacks are more likely to steal from the register and will only consider white people for job openings rather than black people.
That's wrong in both our opinions, right!?!
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Making sense...
