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1 strike rule. Throw them in a program.
They screw up again, euthanize or send them to Germany.
By far, the most stupid post in this thread...
But it is a great study in critical thinking. Compare hotkarl's post with TheDusty's post. One is from someone who is too lazy or not capable of critical thinking, whereas the other is from someone who obviously uses critical thinking as part of their daily life.
I'll leave it to the reader to decide which is which.
I admit to being a hawk on these matters. Very tired of spending money to rehabilitate people who deep down don't wish to, or can't be, rehabilitated.
I gather using drugs is not a crime, but possessing them or buying them is?
So, you get caught for a "crime", you go to jail
Real jail. Cell. Three hots and a cot. Maybe get out once a day for an hour to get some sunshine. No TV, sports, games, etc. Books to read in your cell okay.
Likely if your sentence is longer than a year you will die in jail. Disease. Stir crazy. Malnutrition. Whatever.
One small step for man. One giant leap for mankind when jail becomes a deterrent. When people are afraid of jail. When jail is a certain death sentence, some people will smarten up. Some will die. Society will be improved, either way.
Cruel? Yes. Jail is supposed to be punishment in my mind; not just a place to rest between crimes.
I admit to being a hawk on these matters. Very tired of spending money to rehabilitate people who deep down don't wish to, or can't be, rehabilitated.
I gather using drugs is not a crime, but possessing them or buying them is?
So, you get caught for a "crime", you go to jail
Real jail. Cell. Three hots and a cot. Maybe get out once a day for an hour to get some sunshine. No TV, sports, games, etc. Books to read in your cell okay.
Likely if your sentence is longer than a year you will die in jail. Disease. Stir crazy. Malnutrition. Whatever.
One small step for man. One giant leap for mankind when jail becomes a deterrent. When people are afraid of jail. When jail is a certain death sentence, some people will smarten up. Some will die. Society will be improved, either way.
Cruel? Yes. Jail is supposed to be punishment in my mind; not just a place to rest between crimes.
I am really, really glad society is moving in the opposite direction than your vision of utopia.
So, you really believe that a soccer mom who turned to street heroin because the doctor who got her hooked on opioids and then cut her off because of threats from the DEA should die in prison from malnutrition?
I admit to being a hawk on these matters. Very tired of spending money to rehabilitate people who deep down don't wish to, or can't be, rehabilitated.
I gather using drugs is not a crime, but possessing them or buying them is?
So, you get caught for a "crime", you go to jail
Real jail. Cell. Three hots and a cot. Maybe get out once a day for an hour to get some sunshine. No TV, sports, games, etc. Books to read in your cell okay.
Likely if your sentence is longer than a year you will die in jail. Disease. Stir crazy. Malnutrition. Whatever.
One small step for man. One giant leap for mankind when jail becomes a deterrent. When people are afraid of jail. When jail is a certain death sentence, some people will smarten up. Some will die. Society will be improved, either way.
Cruel? Yes. Jail is supposed to be punishment in my mind; not just a place to rest between crimes.
I have a few questions:
Outside of the moral superiority complex I highlighted in a previous post, what exactly is the difference between spending money on prisons and spending money on rehabilitation/healthcare? Why is one so problematic for you, while the other is not? You say it has to do with addicts going back, but as you said, they don't want to stop and what reason do you have to believe prison will make them want to? You make the assumption that harsher prisons will be an incentive to quit (which I will add that given Norway's highly progressive prison system and their enormously better results than what our justice system pumps out, your assertion that harsh prisons are superior is not necessarily based on any truth), but how does this actually tackle the psychological side of addiction?
What you're offering is a reasoned way to fight addiction. A person will go to jail, and assuming they survive the subhuman standards you would put them in, they come out and think "I don't want to go back their." But surely a heroin addicts thinks the same thing when they run out of money? Yet, they still spend their money on drugs.
It's fairly well known that addiction is not something that can simply be reasoned away, as I'm sure you'll see when you really think about how addiction works.
Recidivism is also a significant factor to take into account. I won't spend too much time on this as it's not drug specific. But as is already the case, the US has a fairly high recidivism rate. Many argue that this is the result of a lack of rehabilitation in our justice system. A solid piece of evidence in again, Norway, who's emphasis is very much on the rehabilitation and they have one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world. Making prisons worse is not a promise of an improved society.
Also, you state the prisons exist to punish and as a result, will be cruel. But the US constitution bans cruel and unusual punishment. This is more often defined as being a single thing, as in 'cruel and unusual.' But, since the constitution is meant to be interpreted and argument are to be made on how it is read, what if it's read as 'cruel' and 'unusual;' two separate things.
Cruel being excessively harsh and unusual being bizarre or unnatural. I'll focus on cruel, but quickly define unusual as being something that is bizarre and immoral, but not for reasons of extreme harshness or to cause great deals of physical or psychological trauma; simply, punishments that make no sense and need not be done. Obviously this is vague, but let's just get right to the point on cruelty.
Cruelty we will define as being excessive, harsh, and physically or psychologically traumatic in a lasting way. While some things are nearly universally barred from being a method of punishment, like torture or slavery (we're of course talking criminal cases; torture is viewed less negatively by many people in the subject of war). Others, there are ongoing debates, like execution or solitary confinement.
You outline some basic conditions of your ideal prison: very low quality food, severe lack of cleanliness, minimal to no access to healthcare, and also crowded. I'm gathering there is also minimum oversight, as guards won't want to patrol these sort of conditions, so violence is likely to occur. You said yourself that these conditions could kill within a year. Those who come out would likely be permanently traumatized and most likely would be unfit to live in society after without seeking professional help, and will surely end up back in prison within a couple of years (based on my knowledge of human psychology, which is admittedly not at an expert level).
I feel a strong argument exists to claim this is cruel punishment, and actually, a strong enough argument probably exists to claim it's unusual as well. Point being, I think an powerful argument can be made to claim your prison model is unconstitutional.
I have a LOT of experience with addiction. My parents were both chain-smoking alcoholics. So is my brother, although now he uses a vape pen for his nicotine fix. He is 70 and currently living in a group home because of a aggravated drunk driving conviction last year (long story).
I also have been using cannabis daily for over 40 years. Because of that, I was successful in breaking a many generations long alcohol addiction that has plagued my family since at least the 19th century. To this day my 37 year old daughter does not drink. That is a HUGE victory. But I digress.
My mother went into the hospital with gangrene on her foot. Before she was released, the doctor told her that they managed to get that foot warmed up, but if she returns to smoking when she leaves she will lose her foot. When my dad picked her up from the hospital, she got in the car and the very first words out of her mouth was "Give me a cigarette." My dad warned her "You heard what the doctor said." My mother then clinched her teeth and demanded "GIVE ME A CIGARETTE!". It wasn't long before she was back in the hospital, but instead of losing her foot she lost her entire leg. She never left the hospital, because she soon lost her life. She was only 62.
I know all about addiction.
I also know myself well enough to know that prison would be the absolute worst way to treat ANY addiction I might have. Many other posters concur.
FWIW, I don't consider nicotine or weed to be hard core addictions like heroine. You can function and have a day to day life and not die as a result of a specific cigarette or blunt.
My dad was a crackead. As was a lot of my cousins. Over 50% of the adults in my life when I was young were crackheads.
When you know people who rob their family or prostitute themselves out in order to get some weed or cigarrettes then you will know what I'm talking about in regards to hard core addictions.
And FWIW, nearly everyone in my family smokes ciagrettes. I don't even consider them a drug lol. Caffeine is also a "drug" and nearly everyone in my family are heavy coffee drinkers as well.
My dad was an alcoholic. His dad was also an alcoholic. The reason his dad died when he was 19 was because his dad drank himself to death and got cirhosis of the liver at only 43 years old. I have a 26 year old cousin who drank himself to death with the same condition.
I rarely drink (may 6 times a year). My dad also thinks I'm a "shero" since I never did drugs nor drink to excess and I still badger him about him smoking cigars he says he has to have a "habit" lol. And I concur that I'd rather him smoke a half a cigar a day than be on crack again and living on the streets.
So my comments do stand. From your description, you do not know much about hardcore drug use and addiction and you do not have the experience I have had with it in my family. When people do not experience this sort of thing, often they don't know what they are talking about in regards to getting people off of these sorts of drugs.
However, I will admit that nicotine is a drug and it is highly addictive and I do think it is ridiculous to allow some drugs but not others, which is why I am for an end to the WOD. But cigarrettes and heroine are not the same. If a heroine addict could feel the same way they could from cigarettes, I bet they would rather trade drugs. Most addicts do hardcore drugs and smoke cigarettes and smoke weed (and drink alcohol).
Unless they're violent, absolutely not. Research and studies have shown over and over again that throwing drug offenders in prison doesn't help much. Treatment costs vastly less money and is vastly more effective. A man or woman in prison for drug addiction will serve their time, get out, and then go right back to their drug of choice. As a past offender, they're more likely to get caught and back to prison they go again and again and again. It's a vicious cycle that costs Americans billions of dollars every year. Clearly, it isn't working.
Unless they're violent, absolutely not. Research and studies have shown over and over again that throwing drug offenders in prison doesn't help much. Treatment costs vastly less money and is vastly more effective. A man or woman in prison for drug addiction will serve their time, get out, and then go right back to their drug of choice. As a past offender, they're more likely to get caught and back to prison they go again and again and again. It's a vicious cycle that costs Americans billions of dollars every year. Clearly, it isn't working.
I'm all for treatment and in general a more humane and medically based approach for drug addiction. But if a junkie steals to support his habit then I have zero sympathy. Lock him up.
I'm all for treatment and in general a more humane and medically based approach for drug addiction. But if a junkie steals to support his habit then I have zero sympathy. Lock him up.
Then his crime is stealing, not addiction.
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