Socialism, babies in cardboard boxes, and the right to life (wages, insurance)

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Kode

Yours is a detached, intellectual, conservative text book rationale.

It's a detached intellectual rationale, neither conservative nor liberal, just based on historical fact.

I showed it isn't true and there is plenty of objective documentation out there to support what I said.

No, there isn't. You can make your claim all you want but that doesn't make it true.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by Kode

They also don't have a military-industrial complex eating up a third of their budget.

Switzerland is neutral. I'm good with the U.S. taking that same position.

[okcthunder1945]

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

It's a detached intellectual rationale, neither conservative nor liberal, just based on historical fact.

Where and when have the people owned the means of production? Historically or presently.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by okcthunder1945

Where and when have the people owned the means of production? Historically or presently.

Presently...

American workers and retirees have $27 Trillion invested in their pension/retirement accounts.

$27 trillion in pension investments | Fiduciary Matters

Guess what those investments are. Yep shares in corporations. IOW... ownership.

[okcthunder1945]

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

Presently...

American workers and retirees have $27 Trillion invested in their pension/retirement accounts.

$27 trillion in pension investments | Fiduciary Matters

Guess what those investments are. Yep shares in corporations. IOW... ownership.

So corporate structure is collectivism/socialism? I am confused.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by okcthunder1945

So corporate structure is collectivism/socialism? I am confused.

The way it is currently structured in the U.S., yes. Workers and retirees own $27 Trillion worth of corporations, etc.

[fisheye]

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

Presently...

American workers and retirees have $27 Trillion invested in their pension/retirement accounts.

$27 trillion in pension investments | Fiduciary Matters

Guess what those investments are. Yep shares in corporations. IOW... ownership.

I love this website: U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time. There they show federal pensions as us owing about $275 billion.

I actually just like to watch the numbers spin around. I get tired, thinking how hard I have to work to pay it all off; and then I go to sleep!

[okcthunder1945]

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

The way it is currently structured in the U.S., yes. Workers and retirees own $27 Trillion worth of corporations, etc.

And how much are the Corporations worth? Do they own enough to control the means of productions?

So just to make sure.... you are saying corporate structure is collectivism?

[chad3]

Originally Posted by InformedConsent

I'm not seeing it. Switzerland's income tax rates are relatively flat, with the highest income tax bracket at 11.5%.

Perhaps you meant to say Switzerland's income tax rates are low.

Switzerland's high income earners are taxed at over 11x higher rates than low income earners. But the high income earners only pay 11.5% tax rates.

Switzerland - Taxes on personal income

In the U.S., the highest tax bracket is 39.6%. PLUS Switzerland has a VAT tax of 8% that EVERYONE pays. The U.S. doesn't have a VAT tax.

But in Switzerland high income earners pay higher fees and fines, like speeding tickets that can cost as much as $1 million dollars. And these increased fees get more revenues from high income earners (but only when high income earners do something wrong or use certain services.)

Plus Switzerland has other taxes like the VAT tax that gives the government more revenues.


Switzerland keeps business tax rates low to increase business. But then Switzerland gets extra tax revenues from progressive personal income taxes, increased fees/fines for high income earners, and other taxes like VAT taxes.

[InformedConsent]

Originally Posted by okcthunder1945

And how much are the Corporations worth? Do they own enough to control the means of productions?

Corporations usually don't own themselves. That's why there's enough outstanding corporate shares that American workers and retirees have $27 Trillion invested in their pension/retirement accounts.

So just to make sure.... you are saying corporate structure is collectivism?

Publicly held and traded corporations, yes.