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Originally Posted by irwinIn Holland civilian disobedience is not uncommon.
We recently have had the anniversary of the February Strike in which 1000s of Dutch citizens went on strike in 1941 during the occupation of Nazi Germany as a protest how our Jewish citizens were treated by the Nazis.
Going on a strike to protest against the government is not uncommon here in Holland. Our government certainly does not have limitless power.
I am not just talking about protesting. I am talking about a Constitution protecting the rights of people who are in such a minority that they couldn't organize enough people to protest on their behalf.
I am talking about the lone Jewish kid living in a small southern town where everyone else is a fundamentalist Christian. Everyone in the town wants to hold organized Christian prayers before public school events and that kid feels pressured to join in prayers that are contrary to his religion. He can take this challenge to the courts and he will win.
Why are college's declining? Do you have proof to back up that Colleges and Universities in other countries are better than ours?
There are a couple of things going on here.
Our public K-12 systems are doing a pretty poor job of preparing students for postsecondary education (even community college), according to the colleges and universities.
And while the U.S. has the largest number of foreign students in our colleges and universities, our country's share dropped from 25.3 percent of all foreign students studying abroad in 2000 to 21.6 percent in 2004.
China has increased its state funding for higher education from $4 billion to more than $10 billion, and has increased by five times the number of students who remain in China to complete their undergraduate and graduate degrees. India has also made substantial investments in its higher education institutions.
Both China and India are recruiting heavily from scientific and business networks in the United States and Europe. Tempting opportunities in China's and India's educational institutions and the promise of high-paying jobs and the concomitant high socioeconomic status in those countries' emerging economies are great incentives for bright young Chinese and Indian students to stay in China and India.
Last edited by InformedConsent; 02-25-2008 at 06:05 PM..
I am not just talking about protesting. I am talking about a Constitution protecting the rights of people who are in such a minority that they couldn't organize enough people to protest on their behalf.
All the rights of the Dutch citizens are protected. That is why we have courts.
We have the trias politica: the ruling government, the courts and the house of parliament that checks our government.
Originally Posted by irwinAll the rights of the Dutch citizens are protected. That is why we have courts.
We have the trias politica: the ruling government, the courts and the house of parliament that checks our government.
Fair enough. I am not knowledgeable enough about the Netherlands to say either way. But again, I am troubled by laws in some European countries citing "incitement" or other general claims as a basis for limiting freedom of speech. This is regulation of speech based on the content of the speech, something generally unconstitutional here in the US.
Although I know that there is separation of powers in all countries in some respect, I also know that in many European counties the government and Parliament are fundamentally within the same segment of government (the legislature). That would be unconstitutional here in the US. I know in Germany (and some other civil law countries) judges essentially strictly apply the civil law code and if the facts of the case do not conform to the code theoretically the judge may not apply the law to the best of his/her knowledge. Judges here in the US have much greater power to apply the law and frankly, develop the law. In Germany, my understanding is that there are provisions for judges to actually cede questions to the legislature. That would be considered a Bill of Attainder here in the US, something explicitly defined as unconstitutional and frankly frightening to me.
I guess you could compare Holland (= the country called the Netherlands) to Germany with the exception that we are not a republic like them, we are a kingdom.
But the Queen's political influence is negligible (altho she does have some influence in the forming of our government).
I guess you could compare Germany to Holland (= the country called the Netherlands) with the exception that we are not a republic like Germany, we are a kingdom.
But the Queen's political influence is negligible (altho she does have some influence in the forming of our government).
I realize that Holland is a kingdom (I am assuming the Netherlands and Holland are both correct ). I also realize that Germany and Holland are not exactly the same legally, politically, socially, culturally. But there are similarities. Both are civil law countries. Both have governments that derive from Parliament. Both seem to be more willing to adopt legislation limiting speech for various reasons (incitement, offense, etc).
Nothing against Holland or Germany for that matter. I have never actually visited Holland (I want to) but I know enough about the country to say that there are many wonderful things about it. I wish the US would be more like Holland in some respects. The country seems to be more open to individual choice of lifestyle, a more live-and-let-live attitude, better public transit and sustainable development...the list goes on. I am merely pointing out a few things that trouble me about the way some European countries deal with such issues as free speech, judges, separation of powers, etc.
Holland is not the same as the Netherlands, and the Netherlands and Germany have some similarities, but in addition to what Tricky D is explaining the Dutch government, and most importantly, the basis of law goes back to Napoleonic law. The difference between the US law and the Dutch hinges quite a bit on this difference. There is no presumption of innocence.
The Netherlands is a country; Holland is a province. It would be like saying the US is New York State.
One of several important tenets of Civil Code in the Netherlands is
it represents a typically Napoleonic mix of liberalism and conservatism, although most of the basic revolutionary gains - equality before the law, freedom of religion and the abolition of feudalism - were consolidated within its laws.
To see more of the Civil Code and possibly understand some of the fundamental differences among US law, common law (UK) and Civil Code can be seen here.
I realize that Holland is a kingdom (I am assuming the Netherlands and Holland are both correct ).
Ontheroad corrected me in a previous post that I should have called my country the Netherlands if I wanted to be truly accurate instead of Holland because Holland is also a province in the Netherlands. But you are correct Holland can be the country or a province.
Quote:
Both seem to be more willing to adopt legislation limiting speech for various reasons (incitement, offense, etc).
We handle incitement and / or offence case by case. The judge decides if it was incitement or just offence. This is why our tabloids often use a question mark in their headlines.
And while the U.S. has the largest number of foreign students in our colleges and universities, our country's share dropped from 25.3 percent of all foreign students studying abroad in 2000 to 21.6 percent in 2004.
China has increased its state funding for higher education from $4 billion to more than $10 billion, and has increased by five times the number of students who remain in China ...
...countries' emerging economies are great incentives for bright young Chinese and Indian students to stay in China and India.
Those links are talking about the decline of the school system in this country from k-12, not the decline of College's or Universities in this country. I know there is a problem with k-12 compared to other countries because we don't set the same high standards as a lot of them. Should we, of course but we don't.
I concede that you have pointed out that there is a decline in the percentage of foregin students studying in the U.S. but does that mean that the actual number of students have dropped as well? Just because the percentage dropped, does not mean that the actual number of students have. It could be that they are having a harder time getting in.
Also, China has had to drop another $6 billion to just retain their own students. It is difficult to even get in a college in the U.S. I heard a statistic the other day, that only 7% of the students that applied to Stanford actually get in. Fitting since Stanford performed one of the studies you had linked to.
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Our government certainly does not have limitless power.
I guess you could compare Holland (= the country called the Netherlands) to Germany with the exception that we are not a republic like them, we are a kingdom.
). I also realize that Germany and Holland are not exactly the same legally, politically, socially, culturally. But there are similarities. Both are civil law countries. Both have governments that derive from Parliament. Both seem to be more willing to adopt legislation limiting speech for various reasons (incitement, offense, etc).