Another racial issues discussion-looking for input *especially* from fellow blacks. (important, generation)

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk

That may be the way other women (specifically, white women) look at them, but men will look at both as equally annoying.

Of course, that's a different thread....

I agree with this. We women are much harder on each other in our personal interactions than we are with males. This even goes back to what I stated regarding my own little sister who puts up with a loser guy and taking care of him but would never do that for a female friend or someone in our family who was female and similar in behavior.

Originally Posted by Klassyhk

Regardless of what White people think, what is more impactful to Black girls (and boys) is what do the parent(s), family and Black community think of Black girls? Do they think Black girls need LESS nurturing, protection, support and comfort than White girls? From all that I've seen over my many years of life I'd say a resounding YES.

Heck, most Black mothers, grandmothers, and aunties nurture, protect, support and comfort Black boys and
their man-child than they do their Black girls. Black girls sink or swim on their own while the brother, uncle, male cousin is enabled to be as unproductive as possible as a an abled-bodied man in this society. How Black people view Black girls is what need to change before being worried about what White people think since the majority of Black girls are raised by Black people, not White people.

On this, not sure what that has to do with my comment. I do not think that my daughter needs less protection, I think that she is more likely to be targeted with passive agressiveness and stereotyped as a black girl/young woman, primarily because I was once a black girl and a I am a black woman and I know for a fact that black women face a lot more danger than black men in society since we can be potential victims of both racism and sexism from all men, including black men.

In my family (me, my husband and our children) our daughter is precious. We both consider her the joy of our family. She is a precious treasure to us and we go above and beyond to protect her. My husband, in kindergarten was ready to go on a war path over the passive aggressiveness of the white female kindergarten teacher. I had to stop him because he will really go there.

I don't disagree that some black mothers are more protective of their sons, primarily IMO because they fall for the things already shared in this thread - in that they feel that their sons are more likely to be threatened by our society, and especially that our sons will be seen as scary by greater white society, which I do believe is true. But for me, as a black woman, within the black community, I know our girls need a lot of nurturing and attention and protection. And I'm not sure if you are black, but from your words, in that we don't protect our black girls, I would guess that you were not because I was the only of my mother's children who was a daughter, she did expect me to be responsible, to get good grades, and to be respectful, and because I was all of those things, any time any teacher or coach or anyone even on the streets even hinted at threatening me she would literally kick their a$$. All my schools were afraid of my mother because I also endured some passive agressiveness, primarily from white female teachers as well. It got to the point when I was in 3rd grade that my mom had to come up to the school and threaten them that if I was not being disrespectful to them and I did my work/got good grades that they "better not" contact her about any BS and that they "better not" give me any bad grades because they didn't like my personality. That I was a child and that as an adult teacher, it was not important for them to "like me" it was important for them to teach me what I needed to know and if they didn't they would "have a problem." I know, since my daughter will have this reading teacher next year, that I will more than likely have to do the same for her. My father was also very protective of me. I was his baby girl for over 10 years until my younger sister was born.

I personally think that white women are more catty and combattive with each other than black girls/women and due to that they think all females are this way when we, as black women/girls, are not. Black women/girls are much more direct IMO than white women in particular and if we have a problem with you, we tell you, and I've had to explain this to my daughter's teachers.

Originally Posted by Klassyhk

I too was raised to respect adults and it didn't matter what color they were. I did not keep talk back or keep talking over an adult while they were talking trying to explain myself or why I'm right. The males and females in my family were raised this way and anything outside of this was not acceptable by any of my family members: parent, uncles/aunts, grandparents, adult cousins.

Consequently, conversations about the police was not a part of my growing up. Since treating adults in general with respect was expected in my family, I certainly was going to treat the police with respect, it was a no-brainer as it was not acceptable to my parents for us to talk back to teachers, curse or talk vulgar in front of adults. But I am a generation Y so I was born before the drugs destroyed the minds and lives of so many Black people. Many of whom gave birth to children. Unfortunately being raised by and around drug addicts has such a negative affect on any child that it's not wonder the number of Black people involved in the criminal system, behavioral problems, and an aversion to people in authority whether in school or elsewhere has increased tremendously over the past few decades. This is not to say that all problems with a Black person and the police are the fault of the Black person. Racism is as mentally destructive as drugs so a racist police and a child raised by a crack addict are the worst combination in the world to meet up in the street. Death and/or destruction will be the result because neither of these individuals have mental clarity and emotional well-being to de-escalate a contentious situation.

FYI - the bold is why I guessed you are not black. All black parents, if they are good parents have to speak to their children about police. We are also raised to not "talk back" and FWIW, I do a lot of volunteering with youth and I encounter "talking back" and disrespectful words/actions much moreso from white youth than black youth.

[residinghere2007]

Wanted to note that on my own mom, she is still VERY protective of the girls in our family, much moreso than the boys/males. My daughter was her first granddaughter. She has 10 grandsons. She expects all of them to protect my daughter.

When she went to my daughter's kindergarten graduation and endured a ceremony where she thought the teacher wasn't going to give my daughter an award, she was ready to go up there and interrupt the ceremony and put the teacher in her place.

FWIW, my mom is a teacher. She has experienced seeing white female teachers in particular holding ridiculous grudges against children for one thing that may have occurred during the year. The teachers will be combattive with the children (she works in an elementary school as well in K-3 so sees this most in these grades) and have a low view of the children along with low expectations. She has even seen these teachers recommend black children be expelled (both boys and girls) for minor actions that they exaggerate to the principal and has had a hand in stopping an expulsion of two of her former students this past school year because she provided support to those students and their families over the fact that the teacher involved was just a bad teacher and made a big deal of nothing and how she had never had any substantial issues with those students when they were in her class the previous year. She is one of a few black teachers at her school and various studies show that white female teachers in particular are much more apt to demonize a black child for exhibiting behaviors that they will let a white child get away with without any sort of disciplinary action/recommendation. My mother believes that both racism/bias and classism/bias are at play in her own school, which is in the inner city and over 90% black. The other 10% is Latino and poor whites and some of the poorest white students in particular, and especially those who are foster care children (about half of the white students in her school are in foster care, primarily with black families who live in that neighborhood), she has been witness to conversations of her fellow teachers speaking ill about those students and demonizing them as well.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by calipoppy

Two girls can say the exact same thing and in the exact same way and will be characterized as....

White girl = assertive, opinionated, strong willed

Black girl = aggressive, sassy, overbearing

For black girl you can add "disrespectful, angry, and mean" as well.

Unfortunately I have to think of this a lot with my daughter. As stated, she is the joy of our family. She is also highly thought of by her music teachers, who are also all white females. They love how she is not shy, that she is confident, that she is funny, that she is talented musically, etc.

This past spring, one of them told me "I bet all her teachers LOVE her" and I had to tell them, no they didn't. They were shocked because they, like me, consider her a joy. So I want to point out that all white females are not this way at all but IMO it is an issue with a lot of elementary school teachers.

I personally don't think that they like the characteristics above about my daughter - that she is confident in particular. I had to tell our principal that I felt my daughter's kindergarten teacher was trying to knock my daughter down a peg and put her in whatever "place" the teacher wanted her in.

However, I am not only raising her to be confident (which black girls have been rated as being much more confident and view themselves in a positive way versus white girls and for Klassyk this is something that is instilled in our girls from their mothers and grandmothers - my mom and grandmother, and great grandmothers - I was blessed to know 3 of them - all instilled in me to be confident in my intelligence, my abilities, and my appearance and to NEVER compare myself to a white girl/woman because it is silly to do so) but also to know that she is smart and capable of anything she sets her mind to and that any attempt to knock my daughter down, will not be met with in an approving fashion. I tried to work on this with the teacher directly, but it came to a head toward the end of my daughter's kindergarten year and I had to involve our black female principal who settled the issue and we didn't have any instances after that. I know now to get her involved immediately next year if issues come up again with her new teacher, who I already feel has a low view of my daughter.

Will also note that my daughter's male teacher ADORED her. I had informed him in 1st grade that she had had issues in kindergarten and to let me know immediately if there were any issues and he called me a week into school telling me the same things as my daughter's music teachers - that he doesn't understand why anyone would have an issue with her - she was a joy to have in class, she was intelligent and respectful, and she had great conversation, he also told me she was very "logical" because she "got" his sarcastic jokes when no other kids did. Luckily she had him for 2 years. I am dreading the new school year when I will probably have to go into a battle mode again with this new teacher. I am not as bad as my own mom when she was younger, in that I won't physically hit anyone or threaten anyone at school in a violent fashion, but both my husband and myself we are VERY protective of our girl. And I honestly could do the same as my mom use to do over me, I chose not to do so though. My husband was ready to call the lady a racist to her face and he actually can get really scary to people who don't know him and he will do this much more likely for our daughter than our son. Our son has always been a goofball and I do think my husband doesn't view him as needing as much protection as our daughter does. She is his heart and I am glad he will go into crazy, protective lion mode for her, much moreso than he does with our son. He mostly only fears greater society for our son and him being viewed as a criminal. And our son is 15 and had already been questioned by police on 3 occasions so for Klassyk I'm glad we've had ongoing discussions with him about interacting with police. Luckily none of them have been negative except for the fact that 2 of the 3 involved them believing my son, while in his school uniform was some sort of criminal.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by Klassyhk

Black people are socialized differently. Of course, when in a mixed racial/cultural environments, it usually doesn't translate well. Black people in general wear their feelings on their sleeves. If they like something they show it. If they don't, they show it. White people in general hide their true feelings but then engage in passive-aggressive actions. If they like something, they give positive affirmations: awesome, excellent, amazing. If they don't like something, they utter vague statements and smile courteously in your presence then go report it to higher ups possibly making the story seem worse than it is or relay the story to friends and family that this person is the worse person EVER.

With Black people, there is open hostility such as sucking of teeth, rolling of eyes, or argumentative speech but you at least get honesty. With White people, there is a calm demeanor, lots of apologizing, and then tears (if it's a female age 0-90) so the other person appears to be the bully aggressor even when sometimes the roles are totally the opposite. The tears stop the train so to speak and they're given a hug, support, encouragement, and so forth. I can't say there's always honesty there as tears are often used a a ploy and/or form of manipulation or could be an admission of guilt. Black girls don't know yet how to play the game of not voicing their feelings but instead producing tears at the onset of frustration or annoyance so they'll appear in need of a hug, support, and encouragement. Instead they roll eyes, suck teeth, and/or back-talk and are consequently seen as a "problem" student or emploee when really they're just being honest with their feelings. Pick your poison.

In regards to the bold - rolling eyes is not "talking back."

My own daughter, as stated does roll her eyes, but it is not at the teacher, it is towards a classmate who in her words has said something "idiotic" lol.

The teacher would see it and would get upset even though it was not directed toward her. My daughter never sucks her teeth and she doesn't back talk. FYI when black kids back talk, they are apt to get a slap in the mouth at home, especially poor, inner city kids, this is why IMO I personally see it more from whites than blacks.

I agree that black people in general are more direct. On the flip side, we are also more forgiving and especially so with kids. This is one of the reasons why my mom is a good teacher (her class is consistently rated as the best in our district in our grade level year over year). She has love for all her students, she thinks they can all learn what she is teaching, and when they do something silly that kids do or even if they exhibit some outrageous behavior once or twice, she will speak to the child and/or the parents and tell them how much she loves them and why they should stop the behavior. She will then make sure to not bring up that incident again and will continue to love and teach that child.

Many white female teachers seem to not be able to do this as often - to basically get over an incident that they didn't like and they will continue to hold a grudge against the child and will subsequently interact with them in a disrespectful manner. Then when the child responds to disrespect from the teacher by disrespecting them, the teacher will escalate the behavior of the child to some outrageous level in order to "get" that kid - usually a black kid.

I also think that you and other whites need to realize that eye rolling or smacking teeth from a black child is not "open hostility" it is an impulsive reaction from a child - which goes back to the article that Ralph posted. You are putting an adult reaction/response on a child. A child more than often is not being hostile, they are being impulsive, which all children have impulsive responses. It is up to the adult to respond to the child in an adult fashion and not to be openly hostile to the child and bait the child into an argument. I know in my family, and many of my family members are educators, we do not think you should ever argue with a child and you should not hold a grudge with a child. A child is learning life in all circumstances and it is up to the adult to teach the child not only academic lessons in school, but how to behave in specific social settings - like school.

For instance, my mom, as stated works in an inner city district with K-3 students. She often gets students on the first day who curse a lot. Some of her white colleagues view the cussing as a behavior problem and will refer the kids to special ed and psychological evaluations over the cussing (lol). My mom, knowing that some kids grow up with cussing parents will remind the kids multiple times that "we don't cuss at school" and will tell them (which is why they love her) to cuss each other out after they leave school lol. That sort of language doesn't belong there and if they continue to do so they will have _____ punishment. Due to her response, which is in a calm, caring fashion, the kids don't cuss around her after a few weeks. It was funny one day I took her something while they were at recess and one of her new students said a cuss word and the other kids were like "Miss ______ doesn't like us to cuss at school, don't cuss at school, wait until you go home" lol.