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My husband is an Independent but often voted Republican. Last year for the first time he voted the straight Democratic ticket. He's disgusted by what's happened to the GOP.
I'm in a similar position. Republican who went Independent. I tend to vote 3rd party now but I'm getting closer by the day to never voting Rep again and being a lot more willing to vote Dem when necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside
So tell me, who created that hint of Russia around Trump? Who ginned up the whole gigantic lie in the first place. You bought the whole lie, hook line and sinker without blinking and have the audacity to tell us we're out of our minds?
Trump created the hint of Russia around Trump. Full stop.
The media reporting it does not means there is no truth to be found. I've not bought into it completely but I do think there should be an investigation. There would be for most anyone else. But you see, I'm well-informed enough that I have not been surprised by a lot of the information. If you are, and you then don't believe it, that's on you.
For example. Flynn. When did you think he should resign? Did you believe he shouldn't resign? Did you think everything being said about him originally was a lie? I ask because I didn't. I was one of those who was in disbelief when he got the job to begin with. Like many others, I already knew he was a lobbyist for the Turkish government prior to Trump picking him and prior to the fervor over it in the media. It was known fact of his history before it Trump ever picked him.
Trump. I started side-eying him on Russia when he changed his position on Crimea at the RNC. He changed it so much that whether you heard it or not (dependent upon what news you read) it was much discussed because the Rep party wasn't happy. It was a change from their position as well. Business ties to them? Completely unsurprising but how deep it is IS a question that should be asked. The media should be asking. The American people should be as well.
And last but not least, this thread. A lot of the assumptions were Obama did it from moment one. My reaction was wtf? The Pres shouldn't be saying this (he shouldn't and up until Trump the public demanded a certain code of conduct from their presidents!) and wasn't this a Brietbart headline recently? And yes, it was. The president hates the press unless they are on his side, then anything printed, even by a questionable source like Brietbart, is truth.
If you like Trump, fine, that's your right. But I beg of you, at least borrow a line from other Reps I've heard lately: "Yup, it bothers me that he lies all the time, but I'm willing to look the other way because I still like what he's doing and going to do for the country." At least that's freaking honest. Pretending its all made up by the mafia press out to get his poor-innocent-soul is, frankly, frightening..
There's no denying that UK Intelligence Agencies were involved to some extent as they provided the tip off to US Intelligence Agencies about Russian involvement in the first place. ...
Agree. There's also no denying there had to be international cooperation, specifically Germany, UK & US cooperation, resulting in a substantiated allegation that a German bank, Deutsche Bank, had been involved in multiple Russian money laundering schemes:
Deutsche Bank fined $630m over Russia money laundering claims Authorities in US and UK issue fine after saying bank used offices in Moscow and London to move $10bn out of country
Quote:
...The German bank admitted that the investigations into its Russian operations over so-called “mirror trades” had not yet finished. It said it was “cooperating with other regulators and law enforcement authorities”. The DoJ is reported to be among them. ...
When Comey told this to house committee, some of the democrats actually accused FBI withholding information. Glen Greenwald explained this thing in his article. According to him, it is going to have some affect on their supporters considering Democrats pushed this agenda a lot. https://theintercept.com/2017/03/16/...sia-collusion/
Actually, this D wants an investigation because I want to see some clear examples of how this spy apparatus works. The idea of trump/russian collusion has never been my primary motivator.
There are a few things wrong with our electoral process, those things are not the fault of russians, they're our problems to fix.
Trump created the hint of Russia around Trump. Full stop.
The media reporting it does not means there is no truth to be found. I've not bought into it completely but I do think there should be an investigation. There would be for most anyone else. But you see, I'm well-informed enough that I have not been surprised by a lot of the information. If you are, and you then don't believe it, that's on you...
No, not full stop. Trump has had business dealings with Russia. Billionaire businessmen have their fingers in a lot of dealings around the globe. Trump had associates who understood how to deal with Russia. Lots of people and companies do that. My last major brokerage house was on a hiring spree to bring in Chinese/English speaking investment bankers, oddly no one accused them of collusion with China in the MSM, because that's how major companies do business
The Hillary campaign, the MSM and every Democrat took a couple facts and spun them into the Russian fairy tale, to the point where "someone" in the Obama administration appears to have taken steps to have the Trump campaign investigated.
If you were truly well informed like you claim, you'd know by this point that no evidence has emerged to support the collusion claim. It remains pure conjecture or, more accurately, wishful thinking.
Wishful thinking.
Here is former Acting CIA Director Michael Morell, who endorsed Hillary Clinton and was on her short list for CIA director, who called Donald Trump a dupe of Russia, but is now casting doubt Wednesday night on allegations that members of the Trump campaign colluded with Russia.
"On the question of the Trump campaign conspiring with the Russians here, there is smoke, but there is no fire, at all," Morell said at an event sponsored by the Cipher Brief, an intelligence web site.
"There's no little campfire, there's no little candle, there's no spark. And there's a lot of people looking for it."
Here's a recent article by Glenn Greenwald quoting Democrats officials warning the base not to expect any evidence of Trump/Russia collusion.
"For so long, Democrats demonized and smeared anyone trying to inject basic reason, rationality, and skepticism into this Trump/Russia discourse by labeling them all Kremlin agents and Putin lovers. Just this week, the Center for American Progress released a report using the language of treason to announce the existence of a “Fifth Column” in the U.S. that serves Russia (similar to Andrew Sullivan’s notorious 2001 decree that anyone opposing the war on terror composed an anti-American “Fifth Column”), while John McCain listened to Rand Paul express doubts about the wisdom of NATO further expanding to include Montenegro and then promptly announced: “Paul is working for Vladimir Putin.”
But with serious doubts — and fears — now emerging about what the Democratic base has been led to believe by self-interested carnival barkers and partisan hacks, there is a sudden, concerted effort to rein in the excesses of this story. With so many people now doing this, it will be increasingly difficult to smear them all as traitors and Russian loyalists, but it may be far too little, too late, given the pitched hysteria that has been deliberately cultivated around these issues for months. Many Democrats have reached the classic stage of deranged conspiracists where evidence that disproves the theory is viewed as further proof of its existence, and those pointing to it are instantly deemed suspect"
Say what you will about 'Russian fairy tales', this is not one of them:
Trump May Have a $300 Million Conflict of Interest With Deutsche Bank
Concern about conflict of interest given bank’s federal probes
Deutsche Bank faces huge potential fines from U.S. government
Quote:
For years, Donald Trump has used a powerful tool when dealing with bankers: his personal guarantee.
Now that guarantee -- employed to extract better terms on hundreds of millions of dollars of loans to the Trump Organization -- is at the center of a delicate loan-restructuring discussion at Deutsche Bank AG, which is under investigation on several fronts by the U.S. Department of Justice.
The bank is trying to restructure some of Trump’s roughly $300 million debt as part of an attempt to reduce any conflict of interest between the loan and his presidency, according to a person familiar with the matter. Normally, the removal of a personal pledge might lead to more-stringent terms. But there is little normal about this interaction. Trump’s attorney general will inherit an investigation of Deutsche Bank related to stock trades for rich clients in Russia -- where Trump says he plans to improve relations -- and may have to deal with a possible multibillion-dollar penalty to the bank related to mortgage-bond investigations. ...
...Meanwhile, Deutsche Bank has been negotiating a multibillion-dollar settlement with the Department of Justice for mishandling the sale of mortgage bonds to other banks. If not settled by then, the department will be overseen by a political appointee of Trump’s after January 20th. ...
Not to mention (previous post has details & link) the substantiated allegation & resulting fines against Deutsche Bank's admitted involvement in multiple Russian money laundering schemes.
The best thing to come out of this entire Trump tantrum/lying fiasco is to watch Trump throw Fox News under the bus at an international press conference and then watch Fox News make statements that basically call crazy Napolitano a liar and pull the rug out from under Trump. That's entertainment!
Trump may have to go full Nazi and create his own propaganda news outlet if he alienates Fox and they no longer cooperate with his agenda.
I honestly could have never imagined a President of the United States embarrassing himself to this level. There is nothing to the wire tapping charge, that is obvious by now, yet he continues the narrative as the world has another laugh at his expense. The problem is as they laugh at him they are laughing at all of
There is no question in my mind that in 50 years he will be remembered as a clown.
I'm in a similar position. Republican who went Independent. I tend to vote 3rd party now but I'm getting closer by the day to never voting Rep again and being a lot more willing to vote Dem when necessary.
Trump created the hint of Russia around Trump. Full stop.
The media reporting it does not means there is no truth to be found. I've not bought into it completely but I do think there should be an investigation. There would be for most anyone else. But you see, I'm well-informed enough that I have not been surprised by a lot of the information. If you are, and you then don't believe it, that's on you.
For example. Flynn. When did you think he should resign? Did you believe he shouldn't resign? Did you think everything being said about him originally was a lie? I ask because I didn't. I was one of those who was in disbelief when he got the job to begin with. Like many others, I already knew he was a lobbyist for the Turkish government prior to Trump picking him and prior to the fervor over it in the media. It was known fact of his history before it Trump ever picked him.
Trump. I started side-eying him on Russia when he changed his position on Crimea at the RNC. He changed it so much that whether you heard it or not (dependent upon what news you read) it was much discussed because the Rep party wasn't happy. It was a change from their position as well. Business ties to them? Completely unsurprising but how deep it is IS a question that should be asked. The media should be asking. The American people should be as well.
And last but not least, this thread. A lot of the assumptions were Obama did it from moment one. My reaction was wtf? The Pres shouldn't be saying this (he shouldn't and up until Trump the public demanded a certain code of conduct from their presidents!) and wasn't this a Brietbart headline recently? And yes, it was. The president hates the press unless they are on his side, then anything printed, even by a questionable source like Brietbart, is truth.
If you like Trump, fine, that's your right. But I beg of you, at least borrow a line from other Reps I've heard lately: "Yup, it bothers me that he lies all the time, but I'm willing to look the other way because I still like what he's doing and going to do for the country." At least that's freaking honest. Pretending its all made up by the mafia press out to get his poor-innocent-soul is, frankly, frightening..
Third world tinpot dictators have followers who believe in the personality of the leader and not the office he holds . Trump can do and say anything he wants because he won. Scary stuff folks.
Actually, this D wants an investigation because I want to see some clear examples of how this spy apparatus works. The idea of trump/russian collusion has never been my primary motivator.
There are a few things wrong with our electoral process, those things are not the fault of russians, they're our problems to fix.
Just as gerrymandering, purging voter rolls, voter suppression, verifiable ballots, electronic voting machines... are worth taking a close look at, so is Russian involvement in our elections.
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