Classic Liberalism vs Modern Liberalism (Congress, lawyer, elect, state)

[petch751]

Originally Posted by Thoreau424

True. And "conservative" is also perversion of what it's meant to stand for: Conserving order for all, conserving stability, conserving wisdom, conserving resources (check out Republican Theodore Roosevelt, for instance), etc.

"Conservative" now is reduced to conserving safeguards and benefits for the rich and powerful.

There are tons of poor to middle-income "conservatives" who ultimately lose in the areas of income, rights, power, value as the rich and powerful get stronger and more dominant. They just think that they're getting better off. But the con job and shadowplay is part of the formula of success for the controlling class.

I'm not married to any party but since the Obama administration I've been pushed right. The melt downs, attacks on free speech and constant attacks on Trump, the party that stands for nothing but resistance is not going to bring people who've been hurt by the policies of modern liberalism to the Democratic party. Like it or not, We're giving Trump a chance.

The best thing I can do for society is to pay my own way and make sure my family is taken care of without using the force of government to take something from other people without my giving something of value in return.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by petch751

First, I would hope that they didn't take it personally. The PC culture and threats of violence to shut down speakers was my point.

I didnt take it personally as there is no way that anger could be meant for someone like me who you have never met.

But I obviously never tried to shut you up, which was my problem with your post.

Remember when dare disagree with Obama and they whipped out the race card, they still do. It was simply another form of silencing anyone who didn't automatically agree with them. That's not what we as Americans should want.

Based on your post and the comment I thanked you for. It would seem you are not racism, but may have been labeled so because of comments like that one.

Where someone intpreted you not understanding/seeing racism as you not caring about it or encouraging it.

Its something I actually have to retrain myself with when talking to my libertarian friends(one of which actually was a Koch Fellow). This paricular friend and I discussed our beliefs, and he asked me why I considered myself a liberal(modern) and not a libertarian(classical) as he thought my personal beliefs fit more in line with people like Rand Paul, than Barack Obama.

My answer was simple, Libertarianism has no mechanism to stop the bad things you guys are against. What does it matter to be morally against something and yet allow it to happen.

These modern day liberals don't realize that when they do this, they shut down speech alright, not as they think but through my right to ignore them because it's just more of the same.

Again, I never shut down your speech, or supported anyone who did. You dont see me defending the morons in Berkeley who actually attempted to do anything other than protest.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by petch751

LOL, I moved right because Democrats were too extreme (taken over by modern liberalism and progressives) and they refused to listen to the people and they are now the smallest Democratic party since the civil war. I can only hope the right learns from that. If they don't, they lose.

Donald Trump himself said the rich could pay more in taxes, he said he could pay more in taxes. So again, this isnt about taxation.

its about whether you support what it is used for and for who.

[Catgirl64]

Originally Posted by petch751

hmm... "the least among us". If I were poor I would find that phrase offensive.

I wouldn't, considering its origins.

[petch751]

Remember when dare disagree with Obama and they whipped out the race card, they still do. It was simply another form of silencing anyone who didn't automatically agree with them. That's not what we as Americans should want.

Originally Posted by dsjj251

Based on your post and the comment I thanked you for. It would seem you are not racism, but may have been labeled so because of comments like that one.

Where someone intpreted you not understanding/seeing racism as you not caring about it or encouraging it.

Its something I actually have to retrain myself with when talking to my libertarian friends(one of which actually was a Koch Fellow). This paricular friend and I discussed our beliefs, and he asked me why I considered myself a liberal(modern) and not a libertarian(classical) as he thought my personal beliefs fit more in line with people like Rand Paul, than Barack Obama.

My answer was simple, Libertarianism has no mechanism to stop the bad things you guys are against. What does it matter to be morally against something and yet allow it to happen.

People are just too sensitive and that is yet another feature of modern liberalism. Those college students are about to get a real dose of reality and just as they weren't able to handle losing the election, they won't be able to handle life.

I think this goes for most people... Life's tough, yes for both the right and left, for black and white. Just when you think you got your chit together and under control, life throws something else at you. They better learn to handle it because no one was put on this earth to coddle anyone.

[dsjj251]

Originally Posted by petch751

People are just too sensitive and that is yet another feature of modern liberalism. Those college students are about to get a real dose of reality and just as they weren't able to handle losing the election, they won't be able to handle life.

I think this goes for most people... Life's tough for both the right and left, for black and white. Just when you think you got your chit together and under control, life throws something else at you. They better learn to handle it because no one was put on this earth to coddle anyone.

people of all sides do it, not just liberals. Liberals just get blamed because the divide is so big between the 2 sides and the right doesnt see what they do as whining or being sensitive, when in reality it is just as bad.

I do have a question though, How exactly did any of this turn you more right. My stated opinion of Bernie Sanders and his followers is well known, but I didnt because less liberal just because they exist. My views didnt change.

Im curious as to why yours did ???

[Catgirl64]

Originally Posted by petch751

First, I would hope that they didn't take it personally. The PC culture and threats of violence to shut down speakers was my point. Remember when dare disagree with Obama and they whipped out the race card, they still do. It was simply another form of silencing anyone who didn't automatically agree with them. That's not what we as Americans should want.

These modern day liberals don't realize that when they do this, they shut down speech alright, not as they think but through my right to ignore them because it's just more of the same.

I don't believe anyone should use violence to shut down speech. I've said so on several occasions. I'm a liberal, and I'm trying to engage you in conversation. I get a very strong impression that health care is a core issue for you. It is for me, as well. I'd like to hear your thoughts about what would work best. For myself, I have issues with Obamacare because it didn't go far enough: it hurt some people, and did nothing for others. Many have benefited, and I understand why they object to its potential repeal: they feel that their lives may be at stake, but overall, it turned out to be a half-measure.

I'm not crazy about an unfettered free market approach to health care, because as it exists now, that shovels far too much money into the pockets of insurance companies, who, in the end, produce nothing in terms of actual health and healing. At the same time, without some kind of pooling of resources, lots of life-saving procedures and treatments would be out of the reach of most people, save the very rich.

Before I say more, I would like to know how you would address the problem.

[petch751]

Originally Posted by dsjj251

people of all sides do it, not just liberals. Liberals just get blamed because the divide is so big between the 2 sides and the right doesnt see what they do as whining or being sensitive, when in reality it is just as bad.

I do have a question though, How exactly did any of this turn you more right. My stated opinion of Bernie Sanders and his followers is well known, but I didnt because less liberal just because they exist. My views didnt change.

Im curious as to why yours did ???

Oh... where do I begin.... lets start with common sense and having a better understanding of human nature.

Modern liberals / socialist obviously don't understand that incentive is much better than force. The belief that giving things to people is good is wrong, it encourages laziness and entitlement while incentive makes life much better for far more people. More people are served by people who give something of value in return for getting something of value.. both win.

Where forcibly taking from people, one wins, one loses, and it also encourage the people who are taken from to give up.. why bother if it's going to be given anyway... then you better hope your group is the favored group of the time or the money doesn't run out.

[T0103E]

Yep, it's the difference between definitions of freedom. One is passive - about being free from the coercion of others, and one is active - about having something done to "make" people more free.

I think the former is obviously far superior, just, fair because it can be applied universally...equally. Everyone is free to make what they want of their life without threats of force against them. The latter is about controlling and micromanaging society by force to decide who deserves what.

The funny thing is that the former is often called naive and utopian. Apparently leaving people alone "wouldn't work", but it's not at all utopian to think that society can be improved by forceful control of everyone...

There is no utopia. That's the point.

[petch751]

Originally Posted by Catgirl64

I don't believe anyone should use violence to shut down speech. I've said so on several occasions. I'm a liberal, and I'm trying to engage you in conversation. I get a very strong impression that health care is a core issue for you. It is for me, as well. I'd like to hear your thoughts about what would work best. For myself, I have issues with Obamacare because it didn't go far enough: it hurt some people, and did nothing for others. Many have benefited, and I understand why they object to its potential repeal: they feel that their lives may be at stake, but overall, it turned out to be a half-measure.

I'm not crazy about an unfettered free market approach to health care, because as it exists now, that shovels far too much money into the pockets of insurance companies, who, in the end, produce nothing in terms of actual health and healing. At the same time, without some kind of pooling of resources, lots of life-saving procedures and treatments would be out of the reach of most people, save the very rich.

Before I say more, I would like to know how you would address the problem.

I've worked in healthcare for over 20 years and our #1 focus was on taking good care of the patient. When Hillarycare was being pushed healthcare changed dramatically for the worse, healthcare became insurance centric instead of patient centric. Obamacare made it much worse. Yes when promised premiums would go down, premiums and deductibles doubled since it's passing I'm forced to pay for insurance that does not fit my family needs, in fact it's expensive catastrophic insurance. Of course I"m not for it.

But we've said this over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And you still haven't heard us. Just prior to the election I remember a liberal posting on this forum... "just shut up and pay it". Yea, that fixed it. We spoke with our vote.