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That was me. Had a grandchild born dead with Spina Bifada............just another one of those things that keeps me awake at times...........
Sorry for your loss. If it is related, that's terrible... What a truly hateful weapon. Did you guys know back then about those risks? I can't believe the military didn't find ways to protect its own at least.
Perhaps there is still more than enough pain to go around, so we recognize that there is no sense creating more. Thus, we demonstrate more humanity.
Good to know we still have it in us.
There are many, many parallels that can be drawn to the present. It amazed me how little the French or the US understood the culture or even the language. We installed horrible leaders in Vietnam with Diem and others, not much different than Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries in our history. We never convinced the people or won over their hearts and minds with our actions, we ended up helping the Viet Cong. we turned the population against us.
Corrupt Vietnamese officials, destruction of their villages, we might as well have been Viet Cong Recruiters.
Sorry for your loss. If it is related, that's terrible... What a truly hateful weapon. Did you guys know back then about those risks? I can't believe the military didn't find ways to protect its own at least.
I personally knew as much about agent orange as those secret talks between Nixon and Kissenger....
I personally knew as much about agent orange as those secret talks between Nixon and Kissenger....
My father died in the mid 90s from lingering effects of Agent Orange. Drowned in mucus accumulation in his lungs. Six months after his death, the VA finally delivered its acknowledgement--which did result in my mother getting a $500 monthly payment until she died.
"It became apparent to me why Ken used vets John Musgrave and Ron Ferrezzi to do the bulk of the story telling in this series. They were among those whom marched on Washington to protest the war, and fit Ken's liberal views"
I predicted this on the first page of the thread.
Overall, I thought this was a good documentary because of all the detail, but it's natural for me to look at it with critical eyes when it is produced by PBS and Ken Burns. And as I said before, I sort of expect the liberal views to seep thru on a doc about Vietnam, it was a highly political war, and that makes it a little different than the subjects Ken has covered in his other docs. I certainly wouldn't tell him to hang it up because I don't agree with everything he says (or doesn't say) in this doc. I just don't think the Cambodia bombings were worth getting all huffy about at that point, when our troops were coming home. I think the left greatly overreacted to the Cambodia bombings. Ellsburg had no business doing what he did in leaking that information. I think Musgrave, Ferrezzi, Kerry, all those guys were certainly entitled to do what they did, but I don't have to like them for it, lol. I don't despise those guys either, they served our country in the war, unlike Jane Fonda who was a pure agitator and antagonized so many people.
The bias comes, I think, from his heavy use of Musgrave and Ferrezzi in the storytelling process, before dropping it on us much later that they were among the leaders of Veterans against the war protesters in Washington. It makes me wonder if they knew Ken personally and might have been personal friends of his. Especially with Ferrezzi's face looking like a donkey's butt crack, with that horrible mustache any director would probably say "No way can we use this guy in a major doc like this unless he trims that rat nest down." Then there was poor old Mougie, all that buildup for the guy that ran away from home because his parents would not sign his enlistment papers. He finally convinces them and the very next episode he gets killed and we get no connection at all with his combat experiences. Mougie lasts 8 months, of course Ken is not going to tell us a story about a 3 tour guy who kicks butt, letting us connect with his war fighting abilities, no, that would be glorifying the gung ho guys who killed the enemy, and he does not want to present any of that to us. That one part where the term "Failure of Conscious" is used to describe the guy who makes plans to flee to Canada, but backs out, and decides to do his duty in Vietnam instead. That was borderline disgusting to me.
Our guys in Vietnam killed a lot of communists, it sent a message to the red hordes that there would be no easy pickings, that we might choose to fight them in the most obscure of places, and fight them for a very long time. The doc showed the misery on their side too, and I found those parts to be very interesting. I had not really ever heard much about their thoughts on the war, the price THEY paid. It would be a near certainty that one of the communist factions in SE Asia would begin to infiltrate Thailand, had we not kept Soviet and Chinese resources tied up in Vietnam. Also, if there were problems brewing in Thailand, that kinda makes it hard for Singapore to get off the ground in the 1970's, because it becomes a rather dangerous place to do business. The growth of Singapore may have been severely altered, and perhaps it falls too. The domino theory sounds corny, but communism did want to expand into other areas, any place unprotected was a juicy target for them.
Not much new info in this last episode for me, the doc on the fall of Saigon made a couple years ago was just as good, with perhaps a little more detail than covered here. I'm glad so many of the ARVN people got out and those that stayed were not all summarily executed on the spot. President Thieu made it to London and also lived in Boston until his death in 2001. He kept a low profile and did very few interviews, which was probably wise, as he was not exactly a beloved figure with many of the other ARVN immigrants. I don't judge him too harshly, he was able to hold out a couple years without air support, US troops, funding and the right equipment and spare parts he needed.
If Vietnam was winnable, it would have taken a real hard nosed guy like Goldwater or Nixon to fight strong from the very beginning, hitting all the most valuable targets in Hanoi from the very start.
I thank all the vets who served in Vietnam, even the Kerry & McCain types, if you served you deserve the best. Good medical, college tuition, preferential treatment in the job market, housing and food if you need it. You guys should be at the top of the list for everything America has to offer.
Location: San Diego CA>Tijuana, BC>San Antonio, TX
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There is an image at 1:11:33 of the last episode of this incredible drama of half Vietnamese/Service Men American children left behind that was impactfull for me to see. My kids are "half-breeds" also like these beautiful kids, perhaps that is why it stood out to me. I hope these children were safe amidst the chaos we as Americans and their Vietnamese "foremothers" left them to inherit.
Overall, I thought this was a good documentary because of all the detail, but it's natural for me to look at it with critical eyes when it is produced by PBS and Ken Burns. And as I said before, I sort of expect the liberal views to seep thru on a doc about Vietnam, it was a highly political war, and that makes it a little different than the subjects Ken has covered in his other docs. I certainly wouldn't tell him to hang it up because I don't agree with everything he says (or doesn't say) in this doc. I just don't think the Cambodia bombings were worth getting all huffy about at that point, when our troops were coming home. I think the left greatly overreacted to the Cambodia bombings. Ellsburg had no business doing what he did in leaking that information. I think Musgrave, Ferrezzi, Kerry, all those guys were certainly entitled to do what they did, but I don't have to like them for it, lol. I don't despise those guys either, they served our country in the war, unlike Jane Fonda who was a pure agitator and antagonized so many people.
The bias comes, I think, from his heavy use of Musgrave and Ferrezzi in the storytelling process, before dropping it on us much later that they were among the leaders of Veterans against the war protesters in Washington. It makes me wonder if they knew Ken personally and might have been personal friends of his. Especially with Ferrezzi's face looking like a donkey's butt crack, with that horrible mustache any director would probably say "No way can we use this guy in a major doc like this unless he trims that rat nest down." Then there was poor old Mougie, all that buildup for the guy that ran away from home because his parents would not sign his enlistment papers. He finally convinces them and the very next episode he gets killed and we get no connection at all with his combat experiences. Mougie lasts 8 months, of course Ken is not going to tell us a story about a 3 tour guy who kicks butt, letting us connect with his war fighting abilities, no, that would be glorifying the gung ho guys who killed the enemy, and he does not want to present any of that to us. That one part where the term "Failure of Conscious" is used to describe the guy who makes plans to flee to Canada, but backs out, and decides to do his duty in Vietnam instead. That was borderline disgusting to me.
Our guys in Vietnam killed a lot of communists, it sent a message to the red hordes that there would be no easy pickings, that we might choose to fight them in the most obscure of places, and fight them for a very long time. The doc showed the misery on their side too, and I found those parts to be very interesting. I had not really ever heard much about their thoughts on the war, the price THEY paid. It would be a near certainty that one of the communist factions in SE Asia would begin to infiltrate Thailand, had we not kept Soviet and Chinese resources tied up in Vietnam. Also, if there were problems brewing in Thailand, that kinda makes it hard for Singapore to get off the ground in the 1970's, because it becomes a rather dangerous place to do business. The growth of Singapore may have been severely altered, and perhaps it falls too. The domino theory sounds corny, but communism did want to expand into other areas, any place unprotected was a juicy target for them.
Not much new info in this last episode for me, the doc on the fall of Saigon made a couple years ago was just as good, with perhaps a little more detail than covered here. I'm glad so many of the ARVN people got out and those that stayed were not all summarily executed on the spot. President Thieu made it to London and also lived in Boston until his death in 2001. He kept a low profile and did very few interviews, which was probably wise, as he was not exactly a beloved figure with many of the other ARVN immigrants. I don't judge him too harshly, he was able to hold out a couple years without air support, US troops, funding and the right equipment and spare parts he needed.
If Vietnam was winnable, it would have taken a real hard nosed guy like Goldwater or Nixon to fight strong from the very beginning, hitting all the most valuable targets in Hanoi from the very start.
I thank all the vets who served in Vietnam, even the Kerry & McCain types, if you served you deserve the best. Good medical, college tuition, preferential treatment in the job market, housing and food if you need it. You guys should be at the top of the list for everything America has to offer.
The last episode was very sad. I have seen documentaries about the last days and its always sad seeing US abandon the doomed city in chaos and fear of the invading enemy.
Very good documentary, well balanced and full of little known details from all sides of the conflict. Some posters talk about "bias", but I didn't see any.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-29-2017 at 06:07 AM..
The last episode was very sad. I have seen documentaries about the last days and its always sad seeing US abandon the doomed city in chaos and fear of the invadinf enemy.
Very good documentary, well balanced and full of little known details from all sides of the conflict. Some posters talk about "bias", but I didn't see any.
You didn't see any bias because you are a Lefty. That's all.
Last edited by Pilot1; 09-29-2017 at 05:30 AM..
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If it is related, that's terrible... What a truly hateful weapon. Did you guys know back then about those risks? I can't believe the military didn't find ways to protect its own at least.
