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That government be considered "the end all be all" is yet another one of those comments that takes us off the deep end of intelligent discussion. Keep in mind that no matter who we are, we begin from the standpoint of protecting ourselves without help and usually we do when it comes to being victim of crime. The police, friends, others are just not around like you want them to be when someone sneaks up from behind with a gun and wants your wallet...
From there we've got what we can do as individuals and/or collectively to prevent crime. We count on law enforcement for many reasons. One, for example, little old ladies are not as able to "be responsible" or safe as others, without the help of others.
I don't count on law enforcement. I live in this place called reality, in reality police are not always there to "protect" nor are they close by. They are stretched out and I acknowledge this fact that they may not be every where at every time.
Off the deep end of intelligent discussion LOL still playing the anointed angle I see...
The 4'9 70 year old little old lady mother of mine acknowledges reality too. She is armed as well... to suggest once you reach a certain age you are completely incapable and suddenly no longer independent is myth... contrary to the popular belief that older folks are suddenly incapable or that they all suffer dementia/Alzheimer’s become frail sacks of skin and bone, alot of our elderly aren't as vulnerable and frail as often believed.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
It's the stuff we DON'T see in movies but happening on our streets every day that is born hardly from "irrational fear!"
Considering these events aren't frequent yes, it is media driven irrational fear.
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Originally Posted by LearnMe
It's a combination of all things in any case. There is what we can do as individuals, to protect ourselves, family and loved ones, as we all must, and then too there is what we can do collectively, by way of whatever laws that help law enforcement to provide the additional level of security for all concerned, including little old ladies and people just wanting to watch a movie, enjoy a concert, without packing...
Hence why the attitude by every sheriff deputy, every local police officer, and FHP I have interacted with encourages concealed carry...
Go to NY and that attitude is varying in degrees depending on which law enforcement agency the officer belongs to.
For example, the sheriff of my County was vehemently opposed to the Safe Act and had been on public record as saying he will not make any arrest for any firearm provision in the SafeAct.
State troopers on the other hand wouldn't think twice to slap the bracelets on for "an assault weapon" "high capacity magazine" etc.
Local PD was voted out, but those that still lived in the town that were commonly found at the rod and gun club on Sundays said they too wouldn't enforce the firearm provisions in the safe act. Unless they became state troopers...
Most disagreed with NYs stance on concealed carry, and disagreed with having a duty to retreat.
So yes I am justified in saying Government is not the end all be all. I would not support a government that would tell you your wife your kids they have no right to defend themselves as they see fit, or have the right to defend their community and fellow man/woman as they see fit.
Vigilantes? No. Lawful peaceable citizens exercising their right to keep and bear arms and to stand their ground if needed. Stand your ground laws are clearly written. You do not have a duty to retreat. You may only use force or lethal force if and only if there is imminent danger/threat of life/property. Be it yours or someone elses.
The anti gun hysterics will claim it is a license to kill, to be judge jury executioner, that it will be wild west scenarios bouncing rounds all over the place, shootouts galore...
I don't see that. I moved to a stand your ground state. I have never once witnessed nor heard reported the claims that anti gun trolls claim would occur... none what soever. It isn't a license to kill or to go provoke others and bait them so that you may get to kill for the sake of killing.
Perception.
You want to depend on police? Go ahead. Seconds matter, help is minutes away.
That's fine if that's what you want. To want it for everyone else? Now that's being selfish and absurd.
Have the armed deterrence present. Take and turn the tide on them. The element of surprise being armed and trained school faculty there. Let whoever wants the means of defense to be armed and trained to thwart an active shooter threat. And do not announce which teachers and faculty members are. Let them have the element of surprise.
Again, were it not for armed citizens returning fire and covering the police officers who went up the tower and killed Charles Whitman the death toll would have been far higher than it was at 17 killed and 30 seriously wounded. He was not even expecting to be engaged at distance in his nest on the bell tower.
The police had nothing but high praise for those people who retrieved their weapons and engaged him. It was this incident that led to the formation of SWAT teams. So, it could be said that the first SWAT team was actually made up of armed citizens.
I live in a rural town of 8,000, 25,000 In the whole county. 10-15 minute response time in town, 2 officers for the town at any one time. 25-30 minute response time in the county, 25 mile x 25 mile square county, one deputy on duty evenings and overnight. We have to be able to protect ourselves. 4 attempted home invasions in the county since November. All four thwarted by armed homeowners. With almost everyone having a gun, we have permitless carry, there has been one gun homicide in the county in the last seven years, and was a drug deal gone bad. So gun ownership is a deterrent here. And no accidental gun deaths in probably 10 years.
I live in a rural town of 8,000, 25,000 In the whole county. 10-15 minute response time in town, 2 officers for the town at any one time. 25-30 minute response time in the county, 25 mile x 25 mile square county, one deputy on duty evenings and overnight. We have to be able to protect ourselves. 4 attempted home invasions in the county since November. All four thwarted by armed homeowners. With almost everyone having a gun, we have permitless carry, there has been one gun homicide in the county in the last seven years, and was a drug deal gone bad. So gun ownership is a deterrent here.
You must live in a state where Constitutional Carry is allowed. Good for you!
Fully ato type fire is not even as deadly effective as is commonly believed. Hits to rounds fired ratios are quite low unless as was the case in Vegas the people being fired at are packed together like sardines. Such a situation is what full auto was designed for. Massed advancing lines of troops. Weapons tech advanced far faster than tactics did through history. WW1 is a prime example. Napoleonic tactics against machine guns and accurate heavy artillery.
Fully automatic fire is given far to much credit for actual effectiveness. The thought of blasting off a 30 round magazine in a space of seconds sounds really scary. Truly it looks really scary and if your downrange of an automatic weapon it IS truly scary. But full auto misses it's targets far more than it hits in reality. If targets are dispersed over a wide area it's not as effective as many think it is.
Paddocks attack in Vegas has been Compared to Whitmans in TX and it's been suggested that Paddock followed Whitmans playbook. Digging in at an elevated position. However that single thing is where any similarity ends. Whitman used precise, aimed fire. Paddock used total area fire. Whitmans victims were widely spaced and he took each out with one shot. Paddocks victims were crammed together and he didn't aim a single shot. As close as he came to aiming was pointing the muzzle in a general direction.
I personally believe that Paddock would have killed and inured a lot more innocent people had he not used the bump stocks and high cap magazines and instead aimed his fire. Yea, I don't figure that take is shared by everyone, but I stand by it. Just like that force of 1000 with 357 revolvers being limited to pretty much imprecise volley fire that could be closely matched by archers.
The point is high ammunition capacity and a high cyclic rate sounds more scary and deadly that is actually is. It requires its targets to be massed closely together and it's also a lot of hard work for a single shooter to maintain. Had Paddock been a truly competent rifleman armed with a 6mm or up rifle of any action type he would have done more damage than he did.
I foresee vehement disagreement from some about that but again I stand firmly by the premise.
Absolutely this and especially the bolded which was what I had addressed to lvmensch...
Had paddock has an M1 Garand with a full power rifle cartridge or hell even a bolt action rifle, more people would have been killed. For how many rounds he fired... his kill to shot fired ratio on a crowd of 22,000+ is (don't anyone take this the wrong way) pathetically low.
If 2,000 rounds were fired and 58 dead, that's a 0.029% count.
Had he used a fudd bolt action rifle in 300 win mag for example he would have had a higher kill ratio. When the Vegas thread was open and people referred to him as a "sniper", he was far from it.
Of course many will oppose this and claim it isn't true.
To those that disagree. Go to your local shooting range that has machine guns to rent. Go shoot one and see how well you can hit your target.
I will guarantee you won't get rounds on target in an effective manner. Do a few 3-5 round bursts, then run an entire magazine dry.
Unless you've been shooting for a while and participate in say 3 gun competitions where you're putting down double taps left and right, I very much doubt you'll be able to put a full magazine on target.
Then do it with a bump stock and see how much worse it gets as you have the physics of recoil and harmonics playing with the barrel along with the rifle sliding in and out combined with muzzle climb from rapid fire recoil...
Common .223/5.56 on the left, lvmensch 30-06 M1 garand cartridge he fired in the 50s on the right.
Things would have been FAR worse with a hunting rifle.
Far worse.
Well placed shots from a full power rifle cartridge would have yielded 2 kills per shot depending on angle. Say 2 people side by side in the crowd. 1 300 win mag or 30-06 through the artery in the neck or through the spinal cord instant death or within a minute, exit hit the person next to them height playing a role, exit the 1st victim and hit the 2nd either in the head or through the shoulder or ribs and hit lung heart and lung... they'd be dead too. The shot to kill count being 2 possibly 3 to 1, yeah. Far worse had he used say an M1 Garand.
When the FBI profiler gave their 2 cents and claimed that people died from bullets that had cut through others... pure nonsense. Not a single 5.56 or .223 loading has the mass nor velocity at that range to smack through multiple bodies. Not a 1. It lacks the energy to punch through 2-3.
As far as the wounds reported, how many of them were gun shot wounds, and how many were Trampling? Falling?
The full power 30-06 absolutely. 300 win mag absolutely would have been worse with aimed shots.
Vegas was the first time an AR had been used in a long range engagement upon innocent people.
If 2k rounds were fired resulting in 58 killed... that really shows how poor of a choice in weaponry if his motive was to slaughter as many as possible.
If that doesn't speak for its inability and speak for its lack in the perceived "powerful" cartridge it fires... I don't know what is...
@NVplumber and NY_refugee87 - thank goodness there other people in this world who understand weapons, ammunition and tactics, and why the Vegas shooter was both a tactical moron and really crappy marksman.
Every single one of his choices made him LESS LETHAL and LESS EFFECTIVE, yet all sound super duper scary, so let us ban them now, vit vit, post haste!!
A magazine fed, bolt action rifle in .300 Winmag or higher, with a proper scope that was zeroed and ranged properly, with a precision barrel >=20" long, preferably employing a well built, quality suppressor, and a bipod would have immeasurably better for his intended task. With a bit of practice with that particular setup, he would have easily increased his kill count by 200-500%, and not one of the items I list except maybe the suppressor (for recoil control and hearing protection) is on anyone's "must ban NAO!!" radar.
More laws are generally bad things anyway, but more laws passed out of sheer ignorance...travesty.
More laws are generally bad things anyway, but more laws passed out of sheer ignorance...travesty.
Dem Politicians and their useful ***** followers use any crisis to their advantage. It is always a cry for more intrusive government. They use emotion, and the media to stir up public outcry to do "something".
Lol.
Let me get this straight - I made a comment about school killings in US vs the rest of the world combined. I was told that the huge rate here is due to "gun free zones". Then when I implied that other countries obviously don't allow any sort of "carry" stuff in schools, I'm given some story about 1973 Delaware. Wow, that's so profoundly logical
I stated your claim word for word. If you don't stand behind it, then retract the claim.
Of course there's a very important reason to generalize. You find the cause. Unfortunately most people don't actually want the cause, because the solution of that cause probably isn't seemingly quick and easy (and able to be encapsulated in a 5 second soundbite), but eliminating the cause will actually solve the problem, who knew?
The discussion is in the contest of "America's unique gun violence"
But OK...
The reality however is that the implementation of permissive gun laws increases violent crime in the United States of America.
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