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The only frantic people I see here are the ones pushing the Libertarian fairy tale.
Not one of them has bothered to address the logical disconnect that the die-off of the Plymouth colonists occurred before the imposition of "communism".
Didn't even bother to read the posts you claim to be talking about, did we?
Still holding tight onto that cognitive dissonance, I see.
I've already covered that none of the settlers knew how to fish, and none were too keen on going into unknown woods full of potentially hostile Native peoples to hunt game.
You've made a few silly and unsupported statements, which were dismissed with the contempt they deserved. How long does it take to learn how to fish? Especially when you're hungry or starving? How long does it take to get your act together and do into potentially hazardous woods... when you're hungry or starving?
The pretension that the Pilgrims were unable to learn these things, is typical of leftists unable to support their agendas unless they can pretend their populations were complete boobs.
The starving time occurred almost from the first days the Pilgrims came ashore in late 1620... because the socialistic rules under which tehy lived gave ZERO encouragement that the food they brought in would do their families more than minimal good. And the starving time continued until those rules were thrown out, letting those who worked, keep what they produced, to consume or trade as they desired. Then, as Gov. Bradford described, prosperity blossomed.
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The Pilgrims weren't communists
I never said they were. But it's understandable that you hide behind a fib, and try to emphasize it in lieu of actual discussion. Such a tactic keeps you from having to address the actual truth.
Did you know there's a difference between libertarian and Libertarian?
It is my understanding that at last count there were at least 30 different and separate groups of thought, all waving the banner of "LiBeRaTaRiAnIsM" - or however one wishes to capitalize it.
I know that for a select few, it's an economic theory, but for the vast majority, it's a religion. And like early Christianity, it has many, many sects.
Didn't even bother to read the posts you claim to be talking about, did we?
Better luck next time.
That's a lame attempt at deflection from my point.
Plymouth Colony's great die off occurred in December 1620 and March 1621. In March 1621, the Pilgrims made a treaty with the Wampanoag people, who then proceeded to teach the Pilgrims how to farm, hunt, and fish in their new environment. That's why the Pilgrims stopped dropping dead, not because they abandoned "socialism" - an economic system that wouldn't be defined for another two centuries.
You've made a few silly and unsupported statements, which were dismissed with the contempt they deserved. How long does it take to learn how to fish? Especially when you're hungry or starving? How long does it take to get your act together and do into potentially hazardous woods... when you're hungry or starving?
The pretension that the Pilgrims were unable to learn these things, is typical of leftists unable to support their agendas unless they can pretend their populations were complete boobs.
Starvation does not teach someone how to fish. Starvation does not make one an expert on tracking game or becoming a better shot.
I could compare and contrast the experiences of Plymouth and Jamestown, how they both experienced starving times, and how each resolved the issue differently (hint - not by "banning socialism"). However, since there are probably no articles on the Mises Institute website concerning the history of the Virginia Colony, you'd probably not follow along.
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The starving time occurred almost from the first days the Pilgrims came ashore in late 1620... because the socialistic rules under which tehy lived gave ZERO encouragement that the food they brought in would do their families more than minimal good. And the starving time continued until those rules were thrown out, letting those who worked, keep what they produced, to consume or trade as they desired. Then, as Gov. Bradford described, prosperity blossomed.
Total Libertarian fairy tale theater above. Enjoy the show, folks!
Did you know there's a difference between libertarian and Libertarian?
Socialism and Communism both are communal, but under communism, there is no such thing as private property. Socialism the people can own property, but the wealth is communal.
In 1617 the companies patents were owned by the King of England. Those working the land did not own the land but were shareholders.
In a libertarian society, the king nor his laws would exist. (unless I miss understood poster No_Recess) The property would be owned by those working it --- no monetary value would be put on said property; if you work it you own it ...
In a Libertarian society a small controlled government would exist in a self-governed society.
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Originally Posted by djmilf
It is my understanding that at last count there were at least 30 different and separate groups of thought, all waving the banner of "LiBeRaTaRiAnIsM" - or however one wishes to capitalize it.
I know that for a select few, it's an economic theory, but for the vast majority, it's a religion. And like early Christianity, it has many, many sects.
In early Christianity there was no State. Just a Church. And a Church was a group of people. Find where I'm wrong and post it ...
To be honest I didn't know until after joining c-d and No_Recess that there's a difference between libertarian and Libertarian. I looked it up and he was right ...
Research --- find out first or is learning, a thing of the past.
Communism the State owns the property; distribution is communal.
Socialism people can own the property, the goods are communal.
One of those describes the economics Pilgrims practiced; the other does not.
According to Governor Bradford, extreme communalism wasn’t doing the job in Plymouth, Massachusetts ca. 1623.
'William Bradford: “Whille no supply was heard of, neither knew they when they might expecte any. So they begane to thinke how they might raise as much torne [corn] as they could, and obtaine a beter crope then they had done, that they might not still thus languish in miserie. At length, after much debate of things, the Govr (with the advise of the cheefest amongest them) gave way that they should set corve [crops from labor] every man for his owne perticuler, and in that regard trust to them selves; in all other things to goe on in the generall way as before. And so assigned to every family a parcell of land, according to the proportion of their number for that end, only for present use (but made no devission for inheritance), and ranged all boys and youth under some familie. This had very good success; for it made all hands very industrious, so as much more torne was planted then other waise would have bene by any means the Govr or any other could use, and saved him a great deall of trouble, and gave farr better contente.'
I think of Plymouth as more an example of an extraction economy than a failed socialist experiment. Weston and his partners wanted a quick return on their investment and set the plantation up for additional struggle by sending a second ship, the Fortune, in November 1621 with 35 young men, but no additional food or sundries, shortly after the pilgrims had set their stores for the winter, cutting each plantation family's allotment in half overnight. Weston got his just desserts, though. After the ship had been loaded with goods, it ended up off course on its return to England, and the valuable cargo was seized by the French. Weston ended up bankrupt.
Starvation does not teach someone how to fish. Starvation does not make one an expert on tracking game or becoming a better shot.
Starvation motivates him to learn how to fish quicker, and study hard the lessons he gets from the people who do know how to fish, hunt, and shoot so he can more quickly start to feed himself and his family.
You knew that, of course. But you're STILL trying to lie about the Pilgrims and pretend they were unable to learn, incompetent even in basic survival and, as usual, complete boobs.
Starvation motivates him to learn how to fish quicker, and study hard the lessons he gets from the people who do know how to fish, hunt, and shoot so he can more quickly start to feed himself and his family.
You knew that, of course. But you're STILL trying to lie about the Pilgrims and pretend they were unable to learn, incompetent even in basic survival and, as usual, complete boobs.
No, I didn't say that they couldn't learn - they were taught by the Wampanoag how to survive in their new environment so obviously they could learn.
Consider the British troops that in 1814 invaded Maryland and burned Washington to the ground. They were veteran troops that fought in the Peninsula War in Spain, that were transported across the Atlantic by the British Navy in much better ships and with much better provisions that the Pilgrims on the Mayflower in 1620. Those British troops were landed at Tangier Island in Chesapeake Bay and given a month to rest and recover from the Atlantic crossing before they were used in the Chesapeake Campaign.
British veteran troops needed a month of recuperation before they could perform the duties for which they were trained, proficient, and experienced. But to fulfill your expectations, Pilgrims from England who had never hunted or fished a day in their lives, or even fired a gun or rowed a boat, and whose Atlantic Crossing was much worse, are expected to suddenly spring up and learn to hunt in a strange land full of potential hostiles and to fish in an ocean without any fishing gear or knowledge of the waters?
It's simply a fact that the Libertarian fairy tale of Pilgrims dying because they practiced "socialism" is demonstrably false.
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