Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You can look at worker cooperatives as an example. When the workers have ownership in their job they treat it differently. It’s not someone else’s tools, it’s theirs.
Management (in different forms) would still exist. Work hours, production methods, and if need be a manager, would be elected democratically. Base work hours would be set and if you work harder than another individual then you receive the excess production (food, access to housing, etc.).
Anyone can stay home, but if their needs are not being met then they would be motivated to meet those needs themselves.
Work is different when it’s self organized, with power coming from the bottom, not the top. Vocational schools would be set up to help teach people the needed skills for production.
What you are saying would work for 60 or 70% of the population. They would learn a skill, show up to work when they are suppose to and want to better themselves and the community. The problem is the rest of the population. Same problem we have now. People drop out of school. Have issues with substance abuse. Are lazy. It is very easy to get student loans for all sorts of vocational or trade schools. And they are not that expensive. But many people just don't bother.
The example of a co-operative where all people are their because they want to be. Sure they all buy into it because they chose to be there. Now everything is sort a co-operative and again 30-40% of the people don't care about all that. And if they don't produce they still have a place to live, food, etc why on earth would they voluntarily work? Lots of people would prefer gaming all day, or staring at facebook or watching netflix. They would take that over any job. Or just sleeping all day.
What about single mom's with lots of kids? Do they have to work? Because they could easily be raising kids for 25 years or more where at least one school age child is at home. In your world what would they need do?
What you are saying would work for 60 or 70% of the population. They would learn a skill, show up to work when they are suppose to and want to better themselves and the community. The problem is the rest of the population. Same problem we have now. People drop out of school. Have issues with substance abuse. Are lazy. It is very easy to get student loans for all sorts of vocational or trade schools. And they are not that expensive. But many people just don't bother.
The example of a co-operative where all people are their because they want to be. Sure they all buy into it because they chose to be there. Now everything is sort a co-operative and again 30-40% of the people don't care about all that. And if they don't produce they still have a place to live, food, etc why on earth would they voluntarily work? Lots of people would prefer gaming all day, or staring at facebook or watching netflix. They would take that over any job. Or just sleeping all day.
What about single mom's with lots of kids? Do they have to work? Because they could easily be raising kids for 25 years or more where at least one school age child is at home. In your world what would they need do?
These problems exist in today’s society. And much of it is due to consumerism and our privatized environment. Crime is institutionalized by state profit and extreme poverty. We feel so distant from our government there actions don’t seem part of our community. Our labor is owned by others, and many either build empires or live with nothing. Drugs are sold as escapism in a world were homelessness and hunger are a doorstep away.
People are defined by their environment; having invisible powers all around you (state and private powers whose control are acknowledged but not seen). Take the police, they are symbols of the government but they themselves work for the state, they are not the state themselves. We have landlords who claim land they don’t live on, and work never seems to have any direct benefit besides the paycheck.
Our environment affects who we are. When we are controlled and brought down to a system where poverty breeds stress, crime and worse. And others who see this have no direct relationship with their work.
Marketing tells use to buy buy buy to achieve happiness, but freedom, the ability to have a say in what and where you work changes our perception
They don’t see what they produce, and they are must work for others. They don’t feel solidarity in work, and there is no sense of freedom and rights in work. People change when dynamics change.
These problems exist in today’s society. And much of it is due to consumerism and our privatized environment. Crime is institutionalized by state profit and extreme poverty. We feel so distant from our government there actions don’t seem part of our community. Our labor is owned by others, and many either build empires or live with nothing. Drugs are sold as escapism in a world were homelessness and hunger are a doorstep away.
People are defined by their environment; having invisible powers all around you (state and private powers whose control are acknowledged but not seen). Take the police, they are symbols of the government but they themselves work for the state, they are not the state themselves. We have landlords who claim land they don’t live on, and work never seems to have any direct benefit besides the paycheck.
Our environment affects who we are. When we are controlled and brought down to a system where poverty breeds stress, crime and worse. And others who see this have no direct relationship with their work.
Marketing tells use to buy buy buy to achieve happiness, but freedom, the ability to have a say in what and where you work changes our perception
They don’t see what they produce, and they are must work for others. They don’t feel solidarity in work, and there is no sense of freedom and rights in work. People change when dynamics change.
How are you going to implement this system of yours?
In what way? Does it respect property rights? Guarantee non-violence towards those that choose not to participate? Does it not believe in its right to seize property "for the workers" from its owners?
You were free to leave Catalonia if you didn't like it...just needed permission from the committee.
It is a voluntary system that prioritizes personal property over private property (impossible to maintain as human abilities have limits in what they can control).
Furthermore there is no unified state or private industry to oppress people. If an owner doesn’t have state cops to keep their control over other people’s labor, what are they going to do if workers decide to self organize?
The militias in Catalonia made sure nobody could organize outside of the central committee.
If only the dead peasants in the rural areas could tell their tales...
The militias in Catalonia made sure nobody could organize outside of the central committee.
If only the dead peasants in the rural areas could tell their tales...
There was a civil war, outside threats and constant war changes the dynamics. Nonetheless, once the system was placed, workers of all shapes and color had access to the same resources.
And it worked, there are some still alive and they’ll tell you what it was like.
You were free to leave Catalonia if you didn't like it...just needed permission from the committee.
There was a war. You want enemy spies and soldiers freely moving about? Things are different now, workers can assemble outside the dynamics of war and death.
These problems exist in today’s society. And much of it is due to consumerism and our privatized environment. Crime is institutionalized by state profit and extreme poverty. We feel so distant from our government there actions don’t seem part of our community. Our labor is owned by others, and many either build empires or live with nothing. Drugs are sold as escapism in a world were homelessness and hunger are a doorstep away.
Come on.
We have a drug problem because of our opulence and disposable income. Lots of wealthy people have drug problems. And if its not drugs its alcohol or gambling addiction. It crosses all economic levels. Not at all just people afraid of being homeless. That is not why people have substance abuse problems. If you took a poor alcoholic and told them that you would pay all their bills for the rest of their life. They will never be homeless. Do you think that they would end their desire to drink? If you think so then you don't anything about addiction.
If what you are saying is true Mexico should even have a bigger drug use problem. Yet they have less. There is no safety net at all, a huge percentage are very poor and so many struggle to survive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
People are defined by their environment; having invisible powers all around you (state and private powers whose control are acknowledged but not seen). Take the police, they are symbols of the government but they themselves work for the state, they are not the state themselves. We have landlords who claim land they don’t live on, and work never seems to have any direct benefit besides the paycheck.
Our environment affects who we are. When we are controlled and brought down to a system where poverty breeds stress, crime and worse. And others who see this have no direct relationship with their work.
Lots of people have stress. I am self employed. I have stress. Jeff Bezos has stress. Elon Musk has stress.
Most people I know have stress. And most are not on the edge of homelessness. If its not money it is something else. That is life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
Marketing tells use to buy buy buy to achieve happiness, but freedom, the ability to have a say in what and where you work changes our perception
They don’t see what they produce, and they are must work for others. They don’t feel solidarity in work, and there is no sense of freedom and rights in work. People change when dynamics change.
Like they say you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. What you say works for 60-70% of Americans. Most of the rest are not going to change. Especially when you tell them they get their basic needs covered whether they work or not. Lots of people are fine with others taking care of them.
And you have not really answered this. What do you do with the person who refuses to work? They have a place to live and food like everyone else. Their laziness does hurt the community but not in a direct way that effects them. Most likely they could care less how it effects the community. They are getting theirs. That is all they care about.
And what about single mothers who kids under 18 to take care of? I know of someone who is a friend of a relative of mine who is in her mid 30's. Has 5 kids and had her first at 17. She just had another kid so she will have public assistance until she is about 53 years old. She has a baby daddy who lives there and works but the government does not know that and she gets benefits for all the kids. 36 years of public assistance. How would that work in your system?
So what I am saying lots of people lie to take advantage of things. Lots of people.
Last edited by Oklazona Bound; 08-25-2018 at 08:17 PM..
How are you going to implement this system of yours?
Simple. Workers start organizing, and soon the need for private power and public power would be eliminated. Once that happens the illusion of power leaves.
There was a civil war, outside threats and constant war changes the dynamics. Nonetheless, once the system was placed, workers of all shapes and color had access to the same resources.
And it worked, there are some still alive and they’ll tell you what it was like.
So in times of extreme duress the State may have to authorize some "collateral damage" in terms of its own populace?
Hmmm...sounds like "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" to me.
Freedom doesn't require breaking a few eggs...especially if they ain't your eggs. It simply requires not violating the NAP.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
