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Political Cuba is authoritarian where the government sets the work agenda (not the workers), and controls what type of labor is available to who. There also authoritarian so the invest lots of resources into keeping power.
That’s why I’m an anarchist. If you want to look at forms where socialism works look at revolutionary Catalonia (anarcho-syndicalism).
Ps. Putin is not a socialist, he is part of the oligarchs that took control in the 90s.
Every true socialist country starts with ideals like you have where the people run things. Problem is when everyone gets about the same money no matter how hard they work they tend to opt out of putting in any effort. So you need strong central government to keep everyone in line and punish them when they do not.
That is why we have Cuba, N. Korea and Venezuela or at least what is left if it now.
Regarding Putin, he wants USSR 2.0. Catalonia is not even a separate country. If they get real Independence then we can talk.
Every true socialist country starts with ideals like you have where the people run things. Problem is when everyone gets about the same money no matter how hard they work they tend to opt out of putting in any effort. So you need strong central government to keep everyone in line and punish them when they do not.
That is why we have Cuba, N. Korea and Venezuela or at least what is left if it now.
Regarding Putin, he wants USSR 2.0. Catalonia is not even a separate country. If they get real Independence then we can talk.
1. Equal pay/reward is not necessary for a socialist system. Having a system where input=output incentivizes people to work. You want luxuries beyond the base needs, you have to work for it; if the demand for a base need in your community is not high enough by your individual standards, then you can join the associated union (often times there is more than one) and any excess production goes to yourself.
Growth based systems don’t incentivize work, they require it. Having a free society were communities are independent from any central power can produce and sustain their own lives under their own abilities, not by the distribution of the capital owner.
That is why left wing anarchist societies work; during the civil war, Catalonia was controlled by the anarchist, and even George Orwell was shocked by they’re success.
1. Equal pay/reward is not necessary for a socialist system. Having a system where input=output incentivizes people to work. You want luxuries beyond the base needs, you have to work for it; if the demand for a base need in your community is not high enough by your individual standards, then you can join the associated union (often times there is more than one) and any excess production goes to yourself.
Growth based systems don’t incentivize work, they require it. Having a free society were communities are independent from any central power can produce and sustain their own lives under their own abilities, not by the distribution of the capital owner.
That is why left wing anarchist societies work; during the civil war, Catalonia was controlled by the anarchist, and even George Orwell was shocked by they’re success.
I do find it interesting to have a base salary and then give a reward for doing more. Before I opened my company I liked working straight commission or a hourly plus commission. The better I did the more I made. I could not imagine working somewhere where the pay was the same no matter how hard I tried.
However.
The unemployment rate in Catalonia is about 12% which has come down but is very high. Why? It is lower than Spain overall.
The minimum wage works out to about $4 per hour. About $586-$700 a month in dollars. Am I figuring it right?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest
What does Bernie produce?
Answer: like everyone else in govt, nothing
Government is there to prevent the worst abuses of capitalism. Yes, sometimes it fails to do so, but without government, businesses would be practically royal (or at least ducal) houses who worry only about their own economic self-interest and to hell with the workers, customers, or those who live around them. Good-bye Family and Medical Leave Act, environmental legislation, Fair Labor Standards Act, antidiscrimination legislation, Food and Drug Safety Act, Fair Labor Standards Act, and all sorts of legislation that let us advance beyond 19th century standards of "quality of life".
So I say governments, at least with those kinds of laws properly enforced, ARE worth every penny of tax paid to them. This nation and its people are paid back many, many times over thanks to those laws and a government that enforces them.
And if some on this board think that makes me an Orwellian statist, then so be it. I don't have any respect for the view that "it's either North Korea or an eternal riot with all weapons".
I do find it interesting to have a base salary and then give a reward for doing more. Before I opened my company I liked working straight commission or a hourly plus commission. The better I did the more I made. I could not imagine working somewhere where the pay was the same no matter how hard I tried.
However.
The unemployment rate in Catalonia is about 12% which has come down but is very high. Why? It is lower than Spain overall.
The minimum wage works out to about $4 per hour. About $586-$700 a month in dollars. Am I figuring it right?
I also noticed that businesses had to pay about 30% of a persons salary for social security.
Revolutionary Catalonia was destroyed by an alliance of the Republicans, Facists, and communist (stalinist) force in 1939. Modern day Catalonia is not reminiscent of their anarcho-syndicalist past: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia
They are being paid a legal wage. If they don't have marketable skills to go elsewhere that is way it goes.
Every single time.......we DO NOT have the jobs for everyone to go get better jobs. They do NOT exist. You wish to demonize people over your fantasy.
At one time someone would get hired out of high school at GM with no "marketable" skills. They would get training and decent pay. Same with the person that made televisions. etc.
We do not have enough of those jobs anymore. NO, everyone can not be engineers.
I ask over and over where millions are supposed to go to find these jobs and................nothing.
Revolutionary Catalonia was destroyed by an alliance of the Republicans, Facists, and communist (stalinist) force in 1939. Modern day Catalonia is not reminiscent of their anarcho-syndicalist past: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Catalonia
That makes sense. I am a libertarian. By reading some of the threads started here and elsewhere I believe there is a concerted effort by incessant threads attacking libertarians. I think its a coordinated effort not just random people making this posts. But regardless I have no illusions that my ideals are going to take hold here any anywhere in my lifetime.
I do like the concept of people actually having the power. However it seems like unions would supplant the role of government and I am not sure what would stop them from taking a bigger chunk of the pie for the union bosses. And what about the court system and any military? Who is in charge of those things? Who would other heads of state meet with and make agreements with?
Something like what Catalonia had is even a more difficult reality. The powerful in this country are not going to just hand over the keys.
Every single time.......we DO NOT have the jobs for everyone to go get better jobs. They do NOT exist. You wish to demonize people over your fantasy.
At one time someone would get hired out of high school at GM with no "marketable" skills. They would get training and decent pay. Same with the person that made televisions. etc.
We do not have enough of those jobs anymore. NO, everyone can not be engineers.
I ask over and over where millions are supposed to go to find these jobs and................nothing.
What makes you think they should even have such jobs. If they're low-skilled and under-educated, why can't they live within the means of the jobs they're able to get? There is no such thing as a "lifestyle guarantee."
That makes sense. I am a libertarian. By reading some of the threads started here and elsewhere I believe there is a concerted effort by incessant threads attacking libertarians. I think its a coordinated effort not just random people making this posts. But regardless I have no illusions that my ideals are going to take hold here any anywhere in my lifetime.
I do like the concept of people actually having the power. However it seems like unions would supplant the role of government and I am not sure what would stop them from taking a bigger chunk of the pie for the union bosses. And what about the court system and any military? Who is in charge of those things? Who would other heads of state meet with and make agreements with?
Something like what Catalonia had is even a more difficult reality. The powerful in this country are not going to just hand over the keys.
A great explainer of the system would be Rudolf Rocker’s book and I’d highly recommend it. I’m not going to right a 10 page essay right now but two points I want to get to;
1.) Unions wouldn’t be the same as they are now. Today unions are meant as a third party between employers and the boss. Furthermore the hierarchical system modern day unions have lead to corruption by its leaders. Unions as Marx explains are more like a company, there is no negotiating because they are the company. If management roles are needed then there would be an electoral system, with every worker being involved (members of the union each get a say). Each union won’t have an unbalanced amount of power compared to the next because each union would be confined to a single workplace. So, if one union wanted to expand their workplace (and there was room) they could, but if they opened up a second branch, that union would be independent from them. Being as production wouldn’t be based on profit, but needs, the workers in one union would have no reason to want to control the workers in another.
The syndicates are more of a regional configuration of different unions (all part of the same field) who each send a representative to form. They don’t have any intrinsic power being as they are made up of individual work places and have no power to tax, or enforce anything involuntary onto people. More so they help set standards for their industry in their, help form vocational education for their industry, settle labor disputes (voluntary), and help form supply chains that create a trade system with other syndicates in the same industry elsewhere (also helps sharing of information that could improve production).
As for the army, hypothetically there would be no state but in the mean while you could have an army that was treated like a union, with free labor movement allowed to join the army ranks. Catalonia, the Zapatistas, etc. all tried this and it worked remarkably well. With that being said, there should be no national army because there would be no one nation in anarchy and furthermore there would be no purpose to an offensive military force.
Last edited by Winterfall8324; 08-25-2018 at 08:06 AM..
They always start with extreme examples and then from there try to control every detail of a situation.
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