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Old 10-03-2018, 08:47 AM
 
Location: City Data Land
17,155 posts, read 12,968,610 times
Reputation: 33185

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There seems to be a lot of controversy around this issue. Although there is little debate that women are not responsible for sexual assaults, do they have a duty to protect themselves? If so, how? Avoiding being alone? Not drinking to excess, avoiding skimpy clothing, what? Many individuals of both genders have expressed this opinion. And if she doesn't protect herself in whatever way is deemed necessary or fitting, is the perpetrator less at fault if an assault happens?

 
Old 10-03-2018, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
23,856 posts, read 13,758,293 times
Reputation: 15482
Oh undoubtedly. She should cover herself from head to foot, and never leave the house without a male protector.

/snark
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
8,278 posts, read 6,277,537 times
Reputation: 6681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
There seems to be a lot of controversy around this issue. Although there is little debate that women are not responsible for sexual assaults, do they have a duty to protect themselves? If so, how? Avoiding being alone? Not drinking to excess, avoiding skimpy clothing, what? Many individuals of both genders have expressed this opinion. And if she doesn't protect herself in whatever way is deemed necessary or fitting, is the perpetrator less at fault if an assault happens?
IMHO

It's sensible to take precautions about anything, don't walk down dark alleys after dark wearing a Rolex. Don't park your shiny new Ferrari in a known GTA area. Don't drive drunk or stoned. If you're attacked physically, sexually or verbally you have the option to defend yourself, and someone shooting the nads off an attempted rapist is fine in my book, just don't shoot the neighbor over a disagreement about an old mattress.

That said the perpetrator is always at fault to the maximum extent. There's no get out of jail free card because the victim ignored all common sense actions. There's no "they were dressed provocatively" defense. Someone can be dressed like a stripper on a pole and dancing as provocatively and falling down drunk but without informed consent you do not have license to touch, or anything else, and anyone doing so should expect prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

My $0.02.
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Old 10-03-2018, 09:08 AM
 
7,235 posts, read 7,041,600 times
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There's only "controversy" from someone stupid enough to believe that a woman wearing a bikini in public means she wants to be raped.
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:08 AM
 
8,411 posts, read 7,425,834 times
Reputation: 6409
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
There seems to be a lot of controversy around this issue. Although there is little debate that women are not responsible for sexual assaults, do they have a duty to protect themselves? If so, how? Avoiding being alone? Not drinking to excess, avoiding skimpy clothing, what? Many individuals of both genders have expressed this opinion. And if she doesn't protect herself in whatever way is deemed necessary or fitting, is the perpetrator less at fault if an assault happens?

No, the perpetrators are not less at fault. Stop the victim bashing. Men need to control their barbaric acts of sexual assault and aggression, period.
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:09 AM
 
Location: City Data Land
17,155 posts, read 12,968,610 times
Reputation: 33185
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Oh undoubtedly. She should cover herself from head to foot, and never leave the house without a male protector.

/snark
I didn't agree either, but I read a Facebook post wherein a woman said she believed a woman had a duty to avoid excessive alcohol use and carry a gun to protect herself from rapists. And she has a grown daughter herself! Smh. Men should have enough self control to be able to resist violent impulses. I have a brilliant idea. Let's invent a robot sex doll brothel!
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
20,396 posts, read 14,673,179 times
Reputation: 39497
These kinds of discussions often get very, very heated, but as someone with a pretty broad perspective on the subject...here goes...

We've got to separate out the concept of RESPONSIBILITY from the concept of FAULT/BLAME/LIABILITY. They are not the same thing and we use them far too interchangeably.

In a certain sense, to the extent that one is capable of making decisions (for instance, excluding children and those with severe mental disabilities) and to the extent that one is informed/risk-aware (they are aware of the possible cause-and-effect chain of consequence that could occur) then yes, one has a certain degree of responsibility for each of one's choices and everything in one's life. The result of the many things we could always have done differently. But there is a chaos factor, too. You sit down at a restaurant, your first thought is to order what you always do, you know you love that dish. But for some reason that day, you talk yourself into trying something new. It arrives, and damn! It's nasty! You hate it. Is it your fault that it doesn't taste good? No. Are you responsible for the fact that it's sitting in front of you? Yeah. Are you thinking, "If only I'd gone with my first choice..." Yeah, probably. But you had no way of knowing, so you took the risk and there was a chance the result would be good, and a chance it would be bad. If you wanted a guaranteed good result, you would not have taken the risk.

That's how risk works. The results of a risky choice can be good, or bad. While we may not bear fault, we bear some responsibility when we make a risky choice.

However, expecting women to, at all times, do literally every possible thing to eliminate risk of sexual assault in our lives, is often just plain unreasonable. There are plenty of women who are doing absolutely nothing wrong at all, not consciously taking any risks whatsoever, who are nevertheless sexually assaulted. Because there is the agency of another human being involved, the fault must always lie with the one who took the action. There is no mitigation of that fault due to triggered temptation or desire in the assaulter. Clothing doesn't matter, for one thing.

To add a bit of perspective, I spend a lot of my time (I volunteer and help run the club) at an private adult social club where members are often unclothed and doing adult things. But we've got standards and rules. No one is permitted to touch anyone without permission, consent is one of the highest and most solid of our rules. Consent violation will get you removed and banned and put out of the group. Black-listed. There are gorgeous women there in enticing outfits or nothing at all, but in general we simply do not have a problem with anyone losing control and violating their consent. We have a different cultural norm, a standard, and it just is not a struggle for most who are there to abide by it.

If men could not be expected to control their urges in the face of temptation, then we'd be seeing a lot more rape at the club. And yet. When the standards are clear, men and women can manage to behave. It's not even that difficult.

So the more significant thing than the old, "what was she wearing?" is situationality. Are you in a safe space, or an unsafe space? Who is around you? Can they be trusted? Is anyone inebriated? Important things to be aware of. I was assaulted once when I was 14. I learned a lot from it, because there were choices I made, actions I took, which led to what happened. I accept RESPONSIBILITY for that, because it empowers me. It means that I can choose, going from that point, different actions to game the odds for a different outcome. I don't consider myself to be at FAULT, or to BLAME, but I happily accept my share of responsibility so that I can learn. And as life lessons go, any bit of learning that doesn't kill me has the potential to help me grow and to improve my life. So, I'll take it.

Now, I don't have any interest in punitive measures for the man who assaulted me back then, if anything I only wish that I could explain it to him so that he could learn from it. I don't believe that he thought of it as rape. It didn't fit the script...he was no stranger leaping at me with a weapon. I said no several times but when he got physically rough, I relented (not saying yes, simply relenting) because I'd rather let sex happen and NOT get beaten to a pulp first. But did I scream and fight him off? No. To this day he might not think of it as a rape, and at the time I wasn't even sure if I did, though I know how I felt. I would like for people to have a better understanding of consent than what we did then. I don't want "justice" or to see that man punished but if I heard that he had learned better things and would not do the same thing today that he did then, I'd be pretty happy.

So from the side of perpetrators of sexual assaults, I'd also like to get away from the obsession with fault, blame, and punishment somewhat, at least in some cases. I think we need to see a distinction between someone who made a mistake, whether because of the cultural narratives they were living at the time, or ignorance about what consent should be like...someone who has learned and grown and isn't that person anymore... And the unrepentant predator who has zero remorse and would do the same thing again given the chance.

Being given the chance to take responsibility without also taking on BLAME is empowering. It allows for growth. On all sides. We aren't doing that, much. I think we could be doing that more. I think that there are plenty of cases in this country, where the whole concept of blame is completely unproductive. People's obsession with black & white answers and taking absolute sides is destroying us. I sure wish we could find a sane place to meet before this whole country comes completely apart at the seams.
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Denver CO
1,406 posts, read 801,807 times
Reputation: 3328
As noted, the perpetrator is always at fault. However, the argument I have seen that it is wrong and/or misogynistic to even suggest that women should use caution or take steps to protect themselves or avoid danger (because they "shouldn't" have to) is ludicrous and irresponsible. There are plenty of things I shouldn't have to worry about, but I still take reasonable precautions to prevent bad things from happening or to ameliorate their effects.
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,896,568 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
IMHO

It's sensible to take precautions about anything, don't walk down dark alleys after dark wearing a Rolex. Don't park your shiny new Ferrari in a known GTA area. Don't drive drunk or stoned. If you're attacked physically, sexually or verbally you have the option to defend yourself, and someone shooting the nads off an attempted rapist is fine in my book, just don't shoot the neighbor over a disagreement about an old mattress.

That said the perpetrator is always at fault to the maximum extent. There's no get out of jail free card because the victim ignored all common sense actions. There's no "they were dressed provocatively" defense. Someone can be dressed like a stripper on a pole and dancing as provocatively and falling down drunk but without informed consent you do not have license to touch, or anything else, and anyone doing so should expect prosecution to the fullest extent of the law.

My $0.02.
Ditto
 
Old 10-03-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: STL area
2,125 posts, read 1,398,512 times
Reputation: 3994
It is smart to take some precautions but the perpetrator will NEVER be less at fault.
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