"No human is illegal on stolen land" (middle east, racism, invasion)

[mtl1]

Funny thing is all territory outside of Africa and even within Africa was by that yardstick "stolen" from some aboriginal human group or another. So I guess Americans can freely prance through everyone else's countries too. Latin America where most illegals are coming from was certainly "stolen" territory in a worse way.

[Bluefox]

Originally Posted by mtl1

Myself I don't gloat or have any thing against American Indians, but that is how the world operated up till the early 20th century.

I don't think America really has unclean hands because I think the way it was went about while not perfect was better than most other alternatives. The Indians still have their tribes and populations intact today.

I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but you should look into the history of our country in a little more detail.

Yes, many Indian tribes, particularly in the west, were “preserved” to some extent. But many other cultures were wiped off the face of the earth. The US repeatedly reneged on treaties it entered into, forcibly removed entire populations, pit one tribe against another, etc. “We” can’t necessarily be blamed for the disease transmission, as it would have happened even if the Europeans were the most benevolent creatures on earth, but we certainly do not have clean hands in the “manifest destiny.”

It still doesn’t remotely relate to or justify “open borders” but we need to accept the cold hard truth that is our nation’s history.

[rbohm]

Originally Posted by brownbagg

but did they have a bill of sale proving ownership?

there are these things called wars, and through a series of such wars, which we won, we took the spoils of these wars, including the land. its ours, we earned it. want to take it? then go to war and earn it through your blood and sacrifice.

[mtl1]

Originally Posted by Bluefox

I’m not going to be disrespectful, but you should look into the history of our country in a little more detail.

Yes, many Indian tribes, particularly in the west, were “preserved” to some extent. But many other cultures were wiped off the face of the earth. The US repeatedly reneged on treaties it entered into, forcibly removed entire populations, pit one tribe against another, etc. “We” can’t necessarily be blamed for the disease transmission, as it would have happened even if the Europeans were the most benevolent creatures on earth, but we certainly do not have clean hands in the “manifest destiny.”

I know about most of the accounts. There were bad acts on both sides. I'm saying in the big picture the American government had its first duty if not really only duty to the settlers on the frontier, and in the time and circumstances took the appropriate route, and to my mind better than the Spanish or most alternatives.

[hawaiiancoconut]

Originally Posted by Oakformonday

Wait. Now you are saying that some group (that must reside in your mind) doesn't want open borders, they want to keep the status quo. Before you were saying they wanted open borders and now you say the borders are already open. Very confusing.

Are you thinking of the border with Canada? That is a pretty open border, yes.

In the real world, nobody wants open borders. Period.

Right! Just about everyone in Mexico and countries south of Mexico wants our border open. I'm not even going to include Progressive Liberals and the illegal immigrants already here that want our borders open.

Just come on in and become one big happy family

[Chicano3000X]

Honestly, It's stolen land, but it was also in a time of lawlessness.

i just don't demonize the people here who are illegal. But I understand that they're illegal and if ICE catches them, they knew the game. But I sympathize with their struggle. Every types of people have been there and will be there at some point in humanity's existence..

Americans might be the new refugees in the next hundred years..

[Rocko20]

It’s ironic that liberals are judging America’s past as they continually enjoy the benefits of being a US citizen. Put your money where your mouth is and renounce your citizenship if you can’t stomach the blood on America’s hands.

As an African American, I’m ironically a direct benefit of America’s tragic past. If it wasn’t for the tragic importation of my ancestors a long time ago, I would’ve been born somewhere in Western Africa instead of Texas.

So no, you won’t see me doing too much whining about being born in the richest country on earth due to America’s greedy past. Typical progressives, whining about being born in America just because we don’t want open borders.

[Hiruko]

I think that a lot of you need to learn about the concept of terra nullius. All of the Americas were terra nullius until sovereign states laid claim to them. Rightfully or wrongfully, the indigenous people of the Americas were never recognized as sovereign states. In fairness to the European powers, the American Indians never recognized each other either.

Today, every inch of the Americas are claimed by a sovereign state. Sovereign states have the right to determine who and what can cross their borders. In my view, every nation, including the United States, has the right to craft an immigration policy that they feel works best for them.

The United States needs an immigration policy that works for Americans while upholding our international obligations regarding refugees. It is the U.S. economy, American culture, and the well-being of American citizens that should determine what policy we have. Our policy should not be about assisting a political party that has decided that it cannot win with the people who are already here.

Chris Cuomo screaming, interrupting, and shouting over guests in the background...my goodness...MUTE.

[McGowdog]

Originally Posted by bingo3000

Yes, America did horrible things in the beginning of the nation's history with the genocide of Native Americans.

That is a fact, okay?


However, why do some on the far left of the political spectrum say that "No one is illegal on stolen land"?

Right you are.

Here's a fact...


Who started the Republican Party? Abraham Lincoln. The Democratic Party? In 1820, Andrew Jackson.

Jackson screwed over the Native Americans for the Democrats’ vote – Indian Removal Bill.

Another pesky fact...


National Republican Senator Frelinghuysen opposed taking Indian land by violence. National Republican Congressman Davy Crockett also opposed this.

Democrats passed it, Jackson signed it into law.

Another pesky fact...

Alexis de Tocqueville, the French observer of Early American History describes the air of destruction of most celebrated and ancient American Peoples a “Trail of Tears.”

Besides stealing land of the Indians, Democrats also embraced slavery on plantations...

But now we're drifting into another nasty Democrat fueled topic.

Some more...

Democratic Party Legacy:
Oppression
Indian Massacres
Broken Treaties
Slavery
But they claim to be the party of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s.
But that was just an Act. There already was a Civil Rights Movement lead by the Republican Party from back in the 1860s.

Now let's just break down this whole claim about theft of land, shall we?

Most countries are founded on conquest. Conquest is how wealth was acquired, not through entrepreneurship, invention, or business.
Historically, every culture has despised entrepreneurs and merchants.
India has a Caste system: priests, warriors, merchants and landowners, servants and subordinates.
Islamic historian Ibn Khaldun says looting is morally preferable to entrepreneurship or trade. Why? Looting is more manly.
In America, wealth is created through innovation, entrepreneurship, and trade.

Manhattan in 1626 was sold by Native Americans to the Dutch for 700 bucks.
It is the creation of the people who built it, not the original inhabitants who sold it.

Did Americans steal the land from the Native Americans?
Columbus never landed in North America.
Actions of the Spanish was 150 years before North America.
Zinn Blames America for the sins of the Spanish, Portuguese, Great Britain, and France.
What about broken treaties since 1776? Sioux in Black Hills were offered $1 Billion, but refused it, they want the land.
But is it their land?
In the late 1700s, the Sioux took the land from the Cheyenne, who had earlier pushed out the Kiowa and the Arapahoe.
What about Genocide? From 1492 to 1692, in the two centuries after Columbus, the Native American population declined by 80% due to diseases- measles, typhus, smallpox, cholera and malaria as there were no immunities.
Just a century and a half earlier, 1/3 of the Europe was wiped out by bubonic and pneumonic plagues, from Asia. Did Zinn shame the Asians as committing genocide? No. I didn’t think so.
If the Native Americans wanted to, they could return to that way of life. Instead, they have chosen tribal self-government, building resorts and casinos, and other entrepreneurial business.

Oh, and our neighbors to the south...

Theft of Mexican Territory? Did we steal ½ of Mexico in the Mexican War?
· Ted Cruz- there were Texians in that area. General Santa Ana was a dictator in Mexico. He began stripping rights from the Texians. They began to revolt to protect their freedom and independence. They fought a revolution and they won.
· A border war ensued, the American Government got involved and we took all of mexico, the whole country, including Mexico City. Then we retired its debt and gave ½ of the country back to them.
· The people on the American side of the border were made American Citizens.
· The word Mexican is an adjective, the word American is a noun. Temo Muniz is a law student active in Hispanic politics. He’s an American with Mexican heritage. He loves the American Dream. Would he move down from Texas to Mexico? No. Why? Because the cartels would destroy his dream. If somehow Mexico re-obtained that land, he’d move to Minnesota.
· Border Patrol was asked how many folks are sneaking from America down to Mexico. None.
· What if America had kept all of Mexico? What would it be like now?

[mtl1]

I wish we had a government in regards to immigration and citizenship like we did before the 1950s or even 1965. You were either considered an American or an outsider. Foreigners including Latin Americans are outsiders. And common sense wasn't throw out the window and the myth that all groups are necessarily compatible accepted as fact. It seems our policies are stuck in an outdated and misguided overreaction to what happened outside of America in the early 1940s. Globalism, mass global immigration and multiculturalism is just flat a failed policy.