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View Poll Results: What's your opinion regarding nationalism?
liberal: nationalism is obsolete and we should move away from it. 6 6.25%
liberal: nationalism was always just a ploy of the ruling class. 8 8.33%
liberal: nationalism has been beneficial, and we should keep it. 1 1.04%
conservative: nationalism is obsolete and we should move away from it. 1 1.04%
conservative: nationalism was always just a ploy of the ruling class. 1 1.04%
conservative: nationalism has been beneficial, and we should keep it. 35 36.46%
independent: nationalism is obsolete and we should move away from it. 4 4.17%
independent: nationalism was always just a ploy of the ruling class. 11 11.46%
independent: nationalism has been beneficial, and we should keep it. 24 25.00%
other (explain below) 5 5.21%
Voters: 96. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-29-2018, 01:37 PM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,522,211 times
Reputation: 10096

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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
And therein lies the concern.

And knowing that -- or maybe he doesn't -- President Trump is choosing to call him self a nationalist. It could be he doesn't get it. And once he made that naive declaration and it was pointed out to him that label i historically attached to dictators and how they justified their positions when they were in power.....he was stuck. Trump doesn't admit mistakes, he digs his heels in deeper. And now he is trying to revise what most of us think of when we talk about 'nationalists'.

And you can argue all you want that TECHNICALLY it isn't a bad thing....but words matter, they have history, meaning and you have to be careful what context you use them.

Trump doesn't have a master of the English language. At best he has a middle school level of usage -- and you know what -- it doesn't matter...until it gets him into trouble when he is trying to give us a picture or an explanation of a policy and he says the wrong thing.

I don't believe Trump mean nationalist in the dictator context (well not completely -- Trump does admire a good dictator -- he likes it that way)......but unfortunately given much of the criticism, it just was the wrong term to use.
If you are talking about leaders like Hitler or Tojo, their ultimate aims were globalist - as in world domination - not nationalist.

Trump is not wanting to take over the world, he just want to negotiate agreements and treaties as an advocate for our country and our interests, while letting those other countries do the same on behalf of theirs. Say what you want to, but there is nothing evil or inappropriate about that.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:38 PM
Status: "Moldy Tater Gangrene, even before Moscow Marge." (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Dallas, TX
5,790 posts, read 3,600,682 times
Reputation: 5697
This one cuts in a lot of different directions. "Nationalism" itself can be interpreted in a lot of different ways. In fact, this topic is very vulnerable to doublespeak.

I'll just say that a nation (or section of) asserting its own reasonable interests is good, but it should not come at the expense of peace. It certainly shouldn't be a matter of saying "Our people are of greater worth than yours" or "Your people are so inferior they deserve whatever castigation that comes their way". That, IMO, seems the root of territorialism, especially types of it not wholely rooted in economics, strategic locations and such. In this day and age, when there's MANY problems that simply don't recognize international borders, there needs to be more international cooperation backed up by treaties. Some problems are too big for any nation to handle, even the USA and China combined.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 2,010,801 times
Reputation: 2167
This is the definition from MW, my favorite dictionary:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism
Quote:
Definition of nationalism
1
: loyalty and devotion to a nation
especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups
...
2
: a nationalist movement or government
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
39,871 posts, read 26,514,597 times
Reputation: 25773
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
And therein lies the concern.

And knowing that -- or maybe he doesn't -- President Trump is choosing to call him self a nationalist. It could be he doesn't get it. And once he made that naive declaration and it was pointed out to him that label i historically attached to dictators and how they justified their positions when they were in power.....he was stuck. Trump doesn't admit mistakes, he digs his heels in deeper. And now he is trying to revise what most of us think of when we talk about 'nationalists'.

And you can argue all you want that TECHNICALLY it isn't a bad thing....but words matter, they have history, meaning and you have to be careful what context you use them.

Trump doesn't have a master of the English language. At best he has a middle school level of usage -- and you know what -- it doesn't matter...until it gets him into trouble when he is trying to give us a picture or an explanation of a policy and he says the wrong thing.

I don't believe Trump mean nationalist in the dictator context (well not completely -- Trump does admire a good dictator -- he likes it that way)......but unfortunately given much of the criticism, it just was the wrong term to use.
It is only "attached to dictators" by idiots or those working to undermine their nation. Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, etc are also "nationalists"-yet far from dictators. Trying to undermine the English language and redefine words has been a constant, though childish and transparently obvious, attempt to discredit this nation and those that work to advance and defend it.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
6,061 posts, read 2,010,801 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
lmao if your time was really that "precious" you wouldn't be spending it posting on CD in an endless back and forth discussion forum like this one.
lmao, there's a nifty CD feature to deal with posters just looking to get in petty squabbles and toss insults rather than make serious points.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:48 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,594 posts, read 1,241,822 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713 View Post
If you are talking about leaders like Hitler or Tojo, their ultimate aims were globalist - as in world domination - not nationalist.

Trump is not wanting to take over the world, he just want to negotiate agreements and treaties as an advocate for our country and our interests, while letting those other countries do the same on behalf of theirs. Say what you want to, but there is nothing evil or inappropriate about that.
Fascism is nationalism taken to its upmost extreme. Mussolini (himself a fascist) defined it as such:

..everything in the state, nothing against the State, nothing outside the state.

Hitler by all definitions was a ultra nationalist, not a globalist.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:49 PM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,522,211 times
Reputation: 10096
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Fascism is nationalism taken to its upmost extreme. Mussolini (himself a fascist) defined it as such:

..everything in the state, nothing against the State, nothing outside the state.

Hitler by all definitions was a ultra nationalist, not a globalist.
Except that he mobilized his nation to war for the purpose of conquering the world, with a view towards him being in charge of it.

I challenge you to name one person who has ever lived who had a more globalist vision than Hitler clearly did.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:59 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,594 posts, read 1,241,822 times
Reputation: 2590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713 View Post
Except that he mobilized his nation to war for the purpose of conquering the world, with a view towards him being in charge of it.

I challenge you to name one person who has ever lived who had a more globalist vision than Hitler clearly did.
You have no idea what the definition of Globalist even means: Here it is according to Cambridge Dictionary

someone who believes that economic and foreign policy should be planned in an international way, rather than according to what is best for one particular country

Hitler couldn't be further from a Globalist.
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Old 10-29-2018, 01:59 PM
 
19,966 posts, read 7,876,419 times
Reputation: 6556
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzSnorlax View Post
Time for a lesson in logic.

If set A is a subset of set B, that does not mean that all of set B is a member of set A.
Israeli is a most nationalist country. Is it a dictatorship?
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Old 10-29-2018, 02:04 PM
 
19,966 posts, read 7,876,419 times
Reputation: 6556
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
You have no idea what the definition of Globalist even means: Here it is according to Cambridge Dictionary

someone who believes that economic and foreign policy should be planned in an international way, rather than according to what is best for one particular country

Hitler couldn't be further from a Globalist.
Hitler was an imperialist same as the globalist are imperialist imposing themselves on other nations. Stalin was an imperialist, as was Japan in the 1940s.
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