Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Your funeral. I got mine and I'm fine. It's a hell of a lot better than the flu.
It would be interesting to know how many people have died effectively as a result of getting a flu shot, and also how many have died from other sorts of vaccinations that have been broadly recommended.
It's hard to make a peanut butter spread approach (all or nothing) to vaccines. For me, it's a combination of the risk if I get the disease, the side effects of getting the shot, and likelihood that I will get the disease if i don't get a shot (vs getting the shot). The answer to these questions is not the same for each and every vaccine, and I would encourage individuals to get educated about each one.
There is a lot of misinformation out there, and probabilities and severities differ greatly for each disease/vaccine.
But I will say there are over 300,000 diseases, and we have vaccines for ~60 of them. So anyone who claims someone is irresponsible for refusing a given vaccine simply doesn't know their math. And some things we needed vaccines for 50 years ago......well we don't anymore.
Many vaccines have heavy metals and aborted fetal tissue in them. That may not be a problem for you, but I would hate to think some people don't know this before they decide to choose.
It's estimated that only 1% of vaccine side effects are reported. I for one got the flu shot 5 years ago, and I got bursitis. It was terrible, and I lost range of motion and strength for 3 years. I had to sue in order to get my PT covered to help my shoulder recover. Needless to say, I won't be getting the flu shot again.
There is also a fund that pays out to lawsuits to adverse vax victims that has literally paid out billions of dollars. Not saying that's reason enough not to get vaccinated, but the CDC would lead you to believe there is minimal risk.
Science deniers? LMAO!!
What makes scientist so special.
In the long run, science is mostly self-correcting. I would not want to claim that science is the only route to knowledge, and I certainly acknowledge that fraud and various sorts of cultural blindness can sometimes derail scientific progress for a decade or more. And I agree with Bill Maher in the video that someone posted earlier when he says we ought to question things - including scientific consensus. And, if someone (like Bill Maher) is specifically avoiding just the flu vax and is not an "anti-vaxer" in general, then I respect their position, even if I don't agree with it.
But, in general, when there is a scientific consensus and a bunch of non-scientists reject the consensus view, they carry a huge burden of proof. On the flu vax, I have not yet seen enough to convince me that the consensus is wrong. Worthy of questioning - yes - but, so far, that's all. Anecdotal stories of some people getting the flu after getting a flu shot is nowhere near close to counting against the vax. (As we all know, the vax for any given year does not contain all strains and, if you are already infected by the time you get the shot, the vax won't work, even if it is one of the strains covered by the vax.)
If/when properly conducted experiments with statistically significant samples sizes show a lack of effectiveness, or that it does more harm than good, I will change my tune.
Last edited by Gaylenwoof; 12-18-2018 at 01:04 PM..
I heard a boy died in a car accident while wearing a seat belt, better not use those either!
I should have expected this but it still took me by surprise. The point was easy, so I'm assuming you're exaggerating.
I'm not the anti-vax, but I'm not stupid either. I don't get the flu shot and think my risk is gone and I don't go around acting like I can touch babies when I'm sick cuz it's not the flu, and I don't wish others a funeral who didn't get it because the next funeral from the flu could still be mine.
You obviously have a skewed understanding of the risks vs rewards. And your surgery nonsense is a good example of it. Along with your understanding of why folks DO care if others get it.
What if I said...take this shot with a 30% odd of preventing a horrific flu. Now, lets just talk about death. 80,000 Americans died from the flu last year. Giving us a death rate from the flu of 1 in 4,000. Odds of dying from the flu shot? No one is really sure. Its so rare. The HIGHEST estimate I have seen is 1 in 500,000.
Now lets talk about non-death. Because as you point out, its only 30% effectiveness (which BTW is cherry picking statistics-it can be as high as 60% effective when they get the strains for the upcoming year right)...but lets use your cherry picked number anyways because it reveals the level of nonsense in your argument. 1-2% might experience a sore area where they get injected. Meanwhile the "30%" effective flu vaccine? It also makes those who do get the flu have lessened symptoms. Remember, 1 in 4,000 of us DIED last year from the flu. 1-2 in 100 might get a sore arm. BUT anywhere from 5 in 100 to 20 in 100 will get the flu. So....you are 2.5X to 10X more likely to catch the flu then to even get a sore arm from the flu vaccine. Yeah. And that sore arm will make you either not get the flu at all or if you do get it have much lessened effects from the flu.
Why do we care if others get the flu vaccine? Because people come to work. Because kids go to school. Because the more vaccinations, the less the flu is spread. If you lived on a island and your choices had no effect on others, no one would care. But welcome to society.
Nope. No flu shot ever. I've never had the flu in my half century of life. I've never spread it to a single person.
Even if I get the flu this year (and I say that every year) and it's the most horrible experience of my life, I will take those odds.
I have an autoimmune disease. I could very likely get more than "a sore area" at my injection. It could do great harm to me. So no, I'm not willing to buy into the fantasy that the flu shot is a) harmless, and b) effective to any great degree. It's a crap shoot on whether they even pick the right strain to vaccinate against, and even if they do, it's not a great percentage of effectiveness.
My husband refuses the shot as well. He's also never had the flu, thereby never spreading it to anyone.
Society has no right to force me to inject a chemical into my body that is not even halfway effective and could do great harm to me. For the record, I do get other vaccinations. Just never the flu.
It would be interesting to know how many people have died effectively as a result of getting a flu shot, and also how many have died from other sorts of vaccinations that have been broadly recommended.
You'll probably never know, just like the people in Flint who were told their water was safe, it will take a whistleblower to find out.
I should have expected this but it still took me by surprise. The point was easy, so I'm assuming you're exaggerating.
I'm not the anti-vax, but I'm not stupid either. I don't get the flu shot and think my risk is gone and I don't go around acting like I can touch babies when I'm sick cuz it's not the flu, and I don't wish others a funeral who didn't get it because the next funeral from the flu could still be mine.
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, as soon as I put my seat belt on I start driving like a maniac because I assume I'm invincible.
Because mandates are tied to profit. They mandate vaccines in the U.S. because they make profits off of our healthcare system because it's a for-profit system, not because it's for your own good, it's for their banks own good.
In Canada, they shot it down pretty quickly when they tried that with their healthcare workers.
This is one of the reasons people are skeptical when it comes to the advice they get in America. Is it for money? Or is it for good health? Who knows. Looking at the Opioid addictions, and the doctors that prescribed 300% more of them it's often for profit.
There are no laws requiring vaccines anywhere in the US. There are no mandatory requirements for health care workers. There are no fines or jail terms for people who do not vaccinate, as there are in some European countries.
Got one today. Last year they completely missed in their guess. hopefully they will be more accurate. Sometimes I get pretty sick from the shot. That is normal. They tell you when you get it, if you get a fever up to 103 just take some Advil or tylenol. If you get a fever of 104 call them or go to urgent care. They also tell you that you may get mild flu like symptoms for 2-5 days.
Worth it if it prevents not so mild flu like symptoms. Sometimes it probably does.
At our work we get asked if we have had a flu shot. If we say no, they get annoyed. they do not want us spreading flu around or missing work. If we get sick a lot or for several days, then they are likely to ask again.
I find it depressing that we have yet another form of science-denial and, in this case, I'm annoyed that it crosses the political divide. But, in addition to feeling bummed and annoyed about this, I'm also curious about what is motivating so much of this nonsense. At least with evolution, climate change, etc., I can see the seeds of the conspiratorial thinking, but in this case I'm just puzzled. I did some digging and found this:
The article gives some hints about the psychological roots of the "motivated reasoning" at work in anti-vaxers, but I'm not satisfied that it really explains much, so I'm still puzzled. The anti-vax attitude leads to actual deaths (thus it is not so vague or longer-term as the threat of climate change might seem), and the science is not overly vague or confusing in this case, yet somehow this particular conspiracy mindset has infected people on both ends of the political spectrum.
Well, since you seem to be begging the question, let me ask and answer it. The above is self serving biased nonsense, and here is why:
Comprehensive analysis of available information, from both sides of any debate is absolutely required, in order to form a rational, and meaningful opinion, no matter the topic in question. This is what anti-vaxers do (as you call us), versus what the pro-vaxers FAIL to do. This is the glaring and obvious failure of the pro-vaccine folks, as they routinely accept at face value, any and every claim made by their “trusted sources”, while automatically dismissing any information contrary to those accepted claims.
While the list of good examples would take me days to compile and type out, I’ll use one to illustrate the point.
The subject: recommendation for flu vaccination of pregnant and nursing mothers. Mainstream medical establishment recommendation is for vaccinating them, claiming there are no known safety issues associated with this practice, which deliberately and fraudulently infers safety. The REAL TRUTH IS, according to vaccine manufacturers THEMSELVES, and DISCLOSED clearly in the vaccine information insert, states that the safety and efficacy of this vaccine for pregnant and nursing mothers has not been established ( read: no safety or efficacy studies have been conducted). There is absolutely a dishonest play on words here ...
Now, given this UNKNOWN safety or efficacy .... one might want to explore the matter a bit more, before accepting such recommendations, STARTING WITH PREVIOUS PROFESSIONAL MEDICAL ADVICE from years ago that used to warn against medicating pregnant mothers.
Then, you might want to consult information from independent sources NOT TIED TO THE MAINSTREAM MEDICAL CARTEL, which will provide you more honest information and answers, to include such things as studies that indicate a 20% increase in autism in children whose mothers received flu vaccinations while pregnant, measured against the children of mothers who were not. Or, you might even simply consult that little voice within ... the source of common sense that might cause you to pause before drinking a glass of draino just because your plumber claimed it was a cure for constipation.
If you had even half the desire to know the honest truth, as you demonstrate in pushing the vaccination propaganda, you’d be far better informed and able to present a more valid opinion, and refrain from denouncing those who disagree with you as “anti-Vaxers, instead of what we actually are ... thoughtful human beings that don’t believe in injecting poison into heathy humans for the express and only purpose of creating pharmaceutical corporate profits.
Conspiracy theory? No. Just a conspiracy ... no longer a theory, anymore than it’s a conspiracy theory that Apple wants to sell iPhones .... Pharmaceutical Companies want to sell their products.
There, in that space of an open mind, you might discover the mountain of evidence showing the risks of flu vaccination outweigh any potential benefit, not just for pregnant and nursing mothers, but for everyone.
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 12-18-2018 at 01:44 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
