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LOL - your post actually highlights what I stated about libertarians being naive about the human experience.
ETA: I always wonder if you all study history. Even the history of the USA from 1800 to 1950 would be a good review of how people don't really GAF about each other and will do anything to get an upper hand with or without government permission or support and with or without slavery.
Good Post
At the end of the day, at our core being, we are all still animals doing what it takes to survive.
I would like to see a libertarian explain the non aggression principle and their views to a lion just before sinks its teeth into their throat and rips it out.
Material has no intrinsic connection to the person, even if their labor made it. Yes their labor is theirs, but the end material is independent of that labor.
Buddhism even discusses the root of pain being attachment. For material goods any increased attachment to something for eternal periods (something you build is yours even after you discard or stop using it) is the formulation of pain, which in its own natural is a limit to free will.
Yes pain itself is a natural part of life, but extensive attachment beyond practice (ownership beyond usage) allows pain to increase in excess.
Now right wing libertarianism believes capitalism is the mode of human organization, that means all goods, or capital, has a monetary value that can be placed on anything. As such capital can be exchanged without having it been built by the owner.
The owner is the signature of a paper, which is artificial in nature.
Good Post
At the end of the day, at our core being, we are all still animals doing what it takes to survive.
I would like to see a libertarian explain the non aggression principle and their views to a lion just before sinks its teeth into their throat and rips it out.
How come you aren't personally going around beating people up and taking stuff from them?
Slaves were feed, and in the case of Jefferson, given the freedom to grow their own food and live in their own lodging.
In our market system today the private and public industry forces people to make money making them slaves to the industrial capitalists who have no care how they treat these 'workers'.
Which ones is freer again?
Do I really have to give an answer to that?
We are much freer. Ever had one of your kids sold. Or your mother or spouse? Your question reveals you think we are better as slaves. Sorry slaves gotta work too
I'd expect better arguments out of a moderator. Granted, that might be my mistake.
Hey I'm just saying that's precisely the truth of the Social Contract.
Let me illuminate further.
Suppose you enter a car dealership, as you're about to leave, the salesman runs after you calling "Sir/Madam you forgot your car." Thrusting keys into your hand.
"Its right outside, top of the line all options, we'll send you the financing agreement for $150,000."
What you going to do? Refuse? But they state on their signs in small print, you tacitly agree to a car purchase on entry to their showroom or forecourt, anywhere they own, unless by prearranged appointment for servicing.
You think that's a contract?
But that's precisely what the social contract is, you never actually agreed to abide by it's terms, you never have been given an option to opt out, you can't even leave without permission, and there wasn't even any sign with small print presented to you.
The social contract is purely a fiction (which is ironic based on your comments on this thread), its sole power is what you imbue in it. It causes people to be killed or imprisoned for failure to abide by terms they never agreed to, and provides powers to government that by law the government really can't hold (If the government is imbued power from the people, and people cannot initiate violence against another, which is what US law states, then how can that government initiate violence against the people? How can it steal from the people, when the people cannot also steal?), how can you imbue an organization with powers that you don't hold?
That's why the Social Contract is your magic wand, and I understand your frustrations coming up against someone who points out that your magic wand is just a poorly painted stick, and isn't going to believe in the BS that if I believe in it, then it will work for me like it does for you. It is the Emperors New Clothes, I just admit I can see his short and curlies.
Hey I'm just saying that's precisely the truth of the Social Contract.
Let me illuminate further.
Suppose you enter a car dealership, as you're about to leave, the salesman runs after you calling "Sir/Madam you forgot your car." Thrusting keys into your hand.
"Its right outside, top of the line all options, we'll send you the financing agreement for $150,000."
What you going to do? Refuse? But they state on their signs in small print, you tacitly agree to a car purchase on entry to their showroom or forecourt, anywhere they own, unless by prearranged appointment for servicing.
You think that's a contract?
But that's precisely what the social contract is, you never actually agreed to abide by it's terms, you never have been given an option to opt out, you can't even leave without permission, and there wasn't even any sign with small print presented to you.
The social contract is purely a fiction (which is ironic based on your comments on this thread), its sole power is what you imbue in it. It causes people to be killed or imprisoned for failure to abide by terms they never agreed to, and provides powers to government that by law the government really can't hold (If the government is imbued power from the people, and people cannot initiate violence against another, which is what US law states, then how can that government initiate violence against the people? How can it steal from the people, when the people cannot also steal?), how can you imbue an organization with powers that you don't hold?
That's why the Social Contract is your magic wand, and I understand your frustrations coming up against someone who points out that your magic wand is just a poorly painted stick, and isn't going to believe in the BS that if I believe in it, then it will work for me like it does for you. It is the Emperors New Clothes, I just admit I can see his short and curlies.
As I pointed out, everyone agrees (except perhaps, giving the benefit of the doubt I'm not wanting to bother with, extreme Anarchists) to a social contract. The only question is how long yours is.
Agreeing for the government to enforce your property rights is still a social contract. That is what the original question was concerning
Now as far as Pure fiction, people can and do initiate violence against others. If you want to also argue that you are advocating some sort of Anarchist system that is a different discussion. The topic is "Views of Libertarians". If you want to argue that you disagree with their views, argue it but it's not something I've been discussing.
Libertarians support a Social Contract, it's just not as big as others.
Good Post
At the end of the day, at our core being, we are all still animals doing what it takes to survive.
I would like to see a libertarian explain the non aggression principle and their views to a lion just before sinks its teeth into their throat and rips it out.
The government should step in and kill the lion after such aggression.
I can’t believe you don’t even agree with the non-aggression principle. Isn’t that the basic human decency?
We are much freer. Ever had one of your kids sold. Or your mother or spouse? Your question reveals you think we are better as slaves. Sorry slaves gotta work too
Do you?
Perhaps it’s because you don’t want to consider my question, or maybe it’s because you can’t.
The policy of renting labor vs. owning labor is an economic reality, not a moral one. The economy of today benefits from consumerism, but workers are just as much a commodity now as then.
The question you should ask is not whether you want to become a slave, but what are the modes to get you to behave a certain way. Slaves did not all live the lives of Uncle Tom, the force that was exerted on them was to keep them in check to perform their job, all other freedom was dependent on the time and place. Slaves had a task, as long as they performed that task they were feed and given ‘freedom’ to live.
Workers now have a different task, and that is to make money and consume. As long as you performe that task, you have the freedom to live.
Neither are questions of moral good, and our current system cannot be understood under the lease of freedom vs. slavery, money can be it’s own slave owner. Try not making money and just making food for yourself. There would be property taxes, creditors, you’d need home insurance or else be left with nothing, and if you choose to live with nothing, you’d be left in the most crippling poverty where crime, disease, and hunger terrorize you. Try living homeless in California, or live temporarily in a shelter where you have no practical say in how it’s operated, and outside even in good weather the cops will be used to clear out homeless camps that don’t ‘own’ the land.
It wasn’t always like that, but now the system demands it, because if people don’t make money and consume, the entirety of government revenue and corporate power would collapse.
And know you’re read to say lazy people deserve to suffer, or that we are freer than slaves, but I’m going to have to ask you to actually read my post and try to understand what I’m saying beyond your surface reactions.
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