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Because of that you will disconnect yourself from the Biblical text and what was deemed in that era, God's law, the law of the land? Sounds about right.
I had to look this up from this excerpt:
"If our women are to be emancipated from subjection to the law which God has imposed upon them, if they are to quit the retirement of domestic life, where they preside in stillness over the character and destiny of society; if they are to come forth in the liberty of men, to be our agents, our public lecturers, our committee-men, our rulers; if, in studied insult to the authority of God, we are to renounce in the marriage contract all claim to obedience, we shall soon have a country over which the genius of Mary Wolstonecraft would delight to preside, but from which all order and all virtue would speedily be banished." An Essay on Liberty and Slavery
I don't really understand the flow of your thoughts here? What are you trying to say? What are your straight forward points? I'm particularly confused about your notions about God? I was taught in Catholic schools, both grammar & high school, but not in college. Now I'm mostly a Jesus loving agnostic. Is God a bully of sorts? Is that what you're saying here? I'm confused by the notions.
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Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Because of that you will disconnect yourself from the Biblical text and what was deemed in that era, God's law, the law of the land? Sounds about right.
I had to look this up from this excerpt:
"If our women are to be emancipated from subjection to the law which God has imposed upon them, if they are to quit the retirement of domestic life, where they preside in stillness over the character and destiny of society; if they are to come forth in the liberty of men, to be our agents, our public lecturers, our committee-men, our rulers; if, in studied insult to the authority of God, we are to renounce in the marriage contract all claim to obedience, we shall soon have a country over which the genius of Mary Wolstonecraft would delight to preside, but from which all order and all virtue would speedily be banished." An Essay on Liberty and Slavery
“Yet, it is important to note that African Americans made Christianity their own, and Black Christians such as Nat Turner employed Christian thought and biblical texts to resist the slave system. Furthermore, Black and white abolitionist Christians played a major role in overturning the system of slavery,” he said.
The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline Is it just a phase they go through—or is there something about libertarianism that attracts, well, uh, you know, racist kooks?
"Libertarianism has an alt-right problem. Many prominent leaders of the alt-right have, at some point, identified as libertarian. I am curious as to… why?"
Thus is one major difference. The French that I've run into are too ashamed to utter his name. When it comes to Confederate generals like Lee and Davis, we have a TV show featuring a car called General Lee.
There were certainly some honor given to Nazi collaborators at first. However, how long did it last?
There were some similarities. I think what made the South different is the defiance. Most modern-day French people won't utter his name. In the South, Robert E. Lee is still heavily celebrated by many. Many people aren't ashamed of General Lee. Now, the denial is the same.
This is my theory. Alot of people aren't going to meet me halfway for reasons besides shame. I don't think it has much to do with shame. Rather, it's stubbornness. The South was taken out of slavery kicking and screaming. It was taken out of Jim Crow kicking and screaming. All that is left now is the Confederate flag. Lionizing Confederate generals takes on a new meaning. Some persons are not mindless. Some persons just don't want anyone to challenge them. There is an attitude of "we lost the war, but we don't change for anyone". I think in many ways the Confederate flag has become a last gasp.
Again, there are MANY differences- no analogy is ever a perfect match.
The French played up le Resistance and downplayed collaboration. The South plays up the pride and lost cause and downplays the slavery and racism.
You are dealing with a problem of pride and shame. With that comes stubbornness. That is how humans deal with the unthinkable.
The Insidious Libertarian-to-Alt-Right Pipeline Is it just a phase they go through—or is there something about libertarianism that attracts, well, uh, you know, racist kooks?
"Libertarianism has an alt-right problem. Many prominent leaders of the alt-right have, at some point, identified as libertarian. I am curious as to… why?"
Anyone involved with the John Birch Society is someone I cannot trust. The thing about Charles Koch is that he doesn't seem like a KKK type. I haven't heard of him using the "N" word. He doesn't seem like some crazy man type. He's the insidious type. He uses his money to fund stupidity. One thing I would like to ask him is this. Why we joined an organization that is against civil rights?
I know about the League Of The South. The group claims that "Blacks were better off during antebellum times than anywhere else" and "They lost a lot too when that lifestyle was destroyed". Yeah right. Being enslaved. I'm going to come off as extreme, but I will say this bluntly. I would much rather be dead than be a slave. When you're dead, you're free. Now, I don't wish death on myself. I don't want to die. I'm saying that being dead is better than being a slave.
Now, back to the League Of The South. It named in reference to the League of United Southerners. Funny thing about that group. It was founded in 1858. It was organized by Edmund Ruffin, a major advocate for slavery. League of United Southerners was founded to look out for "southern rights". The right to own slaves was one of those rights they spoke of. It was committed to dissolving the Union. The League of United Southerners referred to the federal prohibition of the slave trade as "an unworthy concession of Northern fanaticism". It was a pro-slavery party.
One of its leaders, William Lowndes Yancey, had this to say:
Quote:
No National Party can save us; no Sectional Party can do it. But if we could do as our fathers did, organize Committees of Safety all over the cotton states (and it is only in them that we can hope of any effective movement) we shall fire the Southern heart—instruct the Southern mind—give courage to each other, and at the proper moment, by one organized, concerted action, we can precipitate the cotton states into a revolution.
I'm no longer surprised that some people want to spread white supremacy into the universities. Before, such believes were kept to the losers, the ignorant, and those who just seemed like they weren't going anywhere in life. Now, those who advocate white supremacy want it spread to the universities. I think said persons feel like they could make the movement stronger and have more control.
I have this to say about libertarianism. On paper, it looks good. It wasn't founded as a white supremacy party. However, it doesn't take into account that there are some screwed up individuals out there. And it needs to admit that it's attracting more of these alt-right types. Alt-right types identify as libertarians because they feel they can be as bigoted and stupid as they want, and it won't be challenged much. Some people use the libertarian label to cover up their bigoted views, or to justify them.
Again, there are MANY differences- no analogy is ever a perfect match.
The French played up le Resistance and downplayed collaboration. The South plays up the pride and lost cause and downplays the slavery and racism.
You are dealing with a problem of pride and shame. With that comes stubbornness. That is how humans deal with the unthinkable.
I'm listing the similarities and the differences. Compare and contrast. Both are similar in which there is alot of denial. Different in one major aspect. With France, no one utters Papon's name. In the southern USA, Robert E. Lee still gets high honors and is mentioned proudly, albeit most will downplay slavery.
I also think stubbornness is how humans deal with being told they are wrong.
I have another example, one few think about. Ukraine.
In Ukraine, Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian nationalist, is still celebrated by many, especially among those who support the far-right party Svoboda. Bandera was a Nazi collaborator. He was anti-Russian, anti-Polish, and there were also anti-Semitic elements in there as well. Many still honor him, and many hate him.
I'm listing the similarities and the differences. Compare and contrast. Both are similar in which there is alot of denial. Different in one major aspect. With France, no one utters Papon's name. In the southern USA, Robert E. Lee still gets high honors and is mentioned proudly, albeit most will downplay slavery.
I also think stubbornness is how humans deal with being told they are wrong.
I have another example, one few think about. Ukraine.
In Ukraine, Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian nationalist, is still celebrated by many, especially among those who support the far-right party Svoboda. Bandera was a Nazi collaborator. He was anti-Russian, anti-Polish, and there were also anti-Semitic elements in there as well. Many still honor him, and many hate him.
Well, history is a rogue's gallery of those with mixed legacies. Better to stay on point.
I think you are getting too carried away with a compare/contrast to the analogy. Focus on the dynamic at play: Myth to salve shame. The Lee thing is just one facet of that.
These people don't hate you. They are ashamed of their history and thus reinvent it.
Just a theory I read about once and it struck me as plausible. I don't want to debate it. I just thought another angle might interest you.
Well, history is a rogue's gallery of those with mixed legacies. Better to stay on point.
I think you are getting too carried away with a compare/contrast to the analogy. Focus on the dynamic at play: Myth to salve shame. The Lee thing is just one facet of that.
These people don't hate you. They are ashamed of their history and thus reinvent it.
Just a theory I read about once and it struck me as plausible. I don't want to debate it. I just thought another angle might interest you.
It would be hard for me to believe anything else except lingering hatred. I think about the history of the South post-Civil War into the 1960s. It is hard for me to consider that there isn't some kind of hate, or at the least, some resentment.
If you're being taught better, being shown better, but you still choose to do wrong, that is on you. Maybe said persons don't personally hate me. However, there is still some attitudes that are slow to die out. If there is so much shame regarding slavery, why keep paying homage to those who fought to keep it? In France, there is a tendency to not mention Nazi collaborators. I notice this. No one utters Papon's name. No one is proud of him. There are such a deep shame that nowadays, no one insists on paying homage to him. I don't see much shame coming from individuals who fly the Confederate flag or honor Robert E. Lee. I don't that level of shame. I see a level of hardheadedness.
Shame might seem like a good theory. However, now it's morphing into individuals trying to say "well, slavery wasn't a bad thing". I'm seeing more people trying to save face.
It would be hard for me to believe anything else except lingering hatred. I think about the history of the South post-Civil War into the 1960s. It is hard for me to consider that there isn't some kind of hate, or at the least, some resentment.
If you're being taught better, being shown better, but you still choose to do wrong, that is on you. Maybe said persons don't personally hate me. However, there is still some attitudes that are slow to die out. If there is so much shame regarding slavery, why keep paying homage to those who fought to keep it? In France, there is a tendency to not mention Nazi collaborators. I notice this. No one utters Papon's name. No one is proud of him. There are such a deep shame that nowadays, no one insists on paying homage to him. I don't see much shame coming from individuals who fly the Confederate flag or honor Robert E. Lee. I don't that level of shame. I see a level of hardheadedness.
Shame might seem like a good theory. However, now it's morphing into individuals trying to say "well, slavery wasn't a bad thing". I'm seeing more people trying to save face.
I don't know what to tell you. It's just a theory you might want to ponder. If you don't think it plausible, that is cool.
Well, history is a rogue's gallery of those with mixed legacies. Better to stay on point.
I think you are getting too carried away with a compare/contrast to the analogy. Focus on the dynamic at play: Myth to salve shame. The Lee thing is just one facet of that.
These people don't hate you. They are ashamed of their history and thus reinvent it.
Just a theory I read about once and it struck me as plausible. I don't want to debate it. I just thought another angle might interest you.
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They are ashamed of their history and thus reinvent it.
First off Papon, the situation with him, occurred in a time when governments hide their secrets very well. (87 years ago) 158 years ago, they didn't hide any of it, there was nothing to hide. Two, there is a lot more material of evidence to work with, even if they (governments) left some questions unanswered. Ashamed? In their time it was neither immoral or illegal. Papon on the other hand, yep.
Reinvent? That is what one calls discussing the rest of the historical documents ... Alrighty then, lets reinvent some more.
The Southern Spy.
Letters on the Policy and Inauguration of the Lincoln War.
Written Anonymously in Washington and Elsewhere:
Electronic Edition.
" The author of these letters, once a Union man, as long as there was a prospect of acquiring and maintaining the constitutional rights of the South in the Union, and of realizing a hope of Christian peace and charity therein; once averse, on politic grounds, to the early movements of secession, as offering a violent resource for what he then hoped might be moderately remedied, sees that Union now affected to be maintained by a despotism, and the former issue of secession now converted into one where the right of self-government is on one side, and a war of despotism, usurped powers, compulsory purposes and wanton atrocities is on the other."
____________
I got a kick out of reading that as I thought (thinking of the author) shoot, tell us how you really feel ... He isn't telling us, he was telling the POTUS.
I found another database source, I mean there are so many historical documents recorded of that time, very difficult to sort through it all. In that era too, just as now, if some one was asked what the war was about, it would depend on who you asked as to what answer would be given. Diversity in opinion, then same as now. All of history should be told, so people can make their own evaluation and decide from themselves ... one can only do that, when all of it is out in the open.
DocSouth Collection
"Documenting the American South (DocSouth) includes sixteen thematic collections of primary sources for the study of southern history, literature, and culture."
That is just some, of what there is on the Confederate Side; the Union side there is so much more. This goes beyond the Victor, telling the story ... they do not hold that power any more, not since the Internet.
btw: did you know that Egypt is trying to change their (biblical documented) ancient history? Yep, slaves (roughly 3000 years back) lived in quarters and were given a wage; that is not what is documented in biblical history. I found that interesting and just had to share. Reason being, people are putting a modern day morality spin, on an old social custom. Can you imagine what these conversations would look like if they were still doing human sacrifices 160 years ago?
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