How do you close the gap between rich and poor? (ethical, racist)
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No need. US welfare programs are federally funded. So that's the valid comparison: effective federal/national income tax rate.
Either American average income households ($59,000) want to pay a 45% effective federal income tax rate to get Euro-style social program benefits, or they don't. Take a poll.
Any decent poll would include at least a few other options to choose from...
Inheritance tax
Corporate tax
Tax on high income earners
Capital gains tax
Sales tax...
European countries don't do that, though, which makes Europe one of the most prominent tax havens in the world and makes US corporations less competitive on a global scale. The US should do the same: let the wealthy avoid taxes at will by living elsewhere and/or running their corporations through other tax haven countries.
While I don't like the shady tax deals in the EU, the US is no better, US companies are also infamous for their tax evasion schemes. Google etc. owe billions in taxes to various countries.
And there are tax havens within the US, Delaware if I am not mistaken.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
"Entitled?" No, they are not entitled.
Yes, they are. There are specific criteria for state welfare, and if you meet those criteria, you are entitled to get welfare.
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Originally Posted by InformedConsent
How else would they be funded? The Fed and State Governments don't have enough money to pay them.
I linked both the Washington Post article and the research upon which the article was based, which also includes many additional citations. Do what I suggested and read and learn.
Here it is the social security system that pays pensions, based mostly on contributions and a smaller share of taxes if necessary.
Whatever they write in the WP, it is wrong. I know it from my own family. My brother used to earn a lot, so the highest tax rate applied and he kept whining that he paid so much in taxes. I earned a lot less, and paid a much lower rate. Of course he still had a lot more left after taxes than me
It is not a linear progressive system, though. It starts with a flat rate of 0% until you earn a certain threshold income. From there on people pay a progressive tax rate, the higher the income, the higher the rate. That progressive part applies to the vats majority of people here in Europe. When you earn a lot you might reach another threshold, from where on you pay a flat top tax rate again, no matter how much more you earn. In Germany for instance that top rate is 42%, it applies to people earning more than about 60k dollars or so. I do not support that flat top rate, though.
PS: It seems that from a quarter million on you pay an even higher rate there, namely 45%. So it is still mildly progressive up to a quarter million euros, only from there is the rate flat.
That's why European governments want to keep the middle class strong because it is that middle class that pays the bulk of taxes, not rich people.
On the other hand, the taxes and contributions we pay are worth it. About two years ago my brother had an accident. Because of that he has had to make heavy use of the health system until today, and they have paid everything. In the US many people would go broke if they had to pay his health care bills.
And of course he got unemployment benefits (a considerable percentage of his lats salary) all the time.
It would be helpful to the discussion if you just list out the "important facts".
I very much appreciate the desire on your part toward what might be "helpful to the discussion."
Why can't charity replace SNAP?
Most of these "important facts" are pretty easy to find if you really want to know and reviewing them requires more than what most people can tolerate reading in the space of one comment. Just start with what the SNAP program does all over the country and you begin to see what I mean. Then you tell me how you see any charitable organization doing the same, or any group of charitable organizations doing the same...
"SNAP offers nutrition assistance to millions of eligible, low-income individuals and families and provides economic benefits to communities. SNAP is the largest program in the domestic hunger safety net. The Food and Nutrition Service works with State agencies, nutrition educators, and neighborhood and faith-based organizations to ensure that those eligible for nutrition assistance can make informed decisions about applying for the program and can access benefits. FNS also works with State partners and the retail community to improve program administration and ensure program integrity."
At least one additional important fact is commonly misunderstood as many people blamed Obama for the additional expense for SNAP during the Great Recession. Fact is, however, that's how SNAP works! When more people need help with basics like food, like during such a severe economic downturn, more people are going to need the assistance -- obviously. When people need to eat, they can't really count on whether charity will be there to help. "We the people," most of us anyway, can't stand by and watch women, infants and children go hungry simply because they are under served by whatever any local charity can do for them in their local area. Even in one city, access to resources can be strained in one part of the city compared to another part. SNAP coordinates with charitable organizations as well, but charitable organizations also struggle during periods of economic downturn and they are not equally viable in all parts of the country.
I went to the cheapest college around that was approved by the welfare to work program. It was either that or my daughter and me die in the streets because employers refused to employ me because of all my health problems and I needed the money to keep a roof over our heads. Go to college or let me and my daughter die. What a choice. Welfare reformed required either college or a job and society refused to give me and keep me in employment. I cannot force an employer to hire me.
I was turned down for all nongovernment assistance. I never received a single scholarship from my high grades in high school like people kept telling me would happen when I was a kid. I got turned down for those too. I had 100 average in algebra for the entire school year and still didn't get a scholarship for college. I would've graduated in the top four in my class but still no scholarships.
I didn't even want to go to college anymore. If I didn't then my child would've suffered since I couldn't physically do jobs. I was in college off and on from 1994 to 2009 to keep getting financial aid so I could take care of my child, but I kept having to drop out for medical problems and appeal to get back in. Wasn't my fault God never blessed me with a healthy body. I've been sick since I was born. Had God blessed me with good health and a job then I wouldn't have even been in college anymore. I could've graduated in a reasonable time like normal, healthy people.
I tried to never go on disability. I kept holding out trying to get normal with healing and a job like His children promised. I kept praying and begging for it. I ran out of financial aid eligibility, and God still hadn't healed me so I could finally physically work a job. So, I ended up having to go on disability as last resort. If I'd still been eligible for financial aid, I'd still be there taking classes even though I was too sick to work anyway. And my health kept getting worse instead of better. It costs taxpayers thousands of dollars a month to keep me alive.
Per the highlighted, your college debt is actually debt incurred by gaming the federal aid system for money to live on, under the guise of being in college. You weren't just getting the minimum required aid for tuition, but going for max aid to pay for your (and your child) actual living expenses. You borrowed an income supplement to welfare for 15 years. I am shocked it is only $165k you owe.
Per the highlighted in red, yes, it is your fault. If you were legitimately physically disabled and unable to work, proving that to the roughly bazillion welfare agencies who give disability would have been no trouble at all. You chose to not do that and game the federal aid system for supplemental income. Why you chose that is something only you can answer, but I'd be curious to know what illness you have such that it prevents you from working or even attending school regularly, but doesn't pass disability clam muster. But you did indeed choose, and that makes it 100% your choice, thus your fault.
Oh wait, you did get SSDI after all. So what happened during those 15 years? Did the "illness" progress to a point where disability finally accepted it as an SSDI claim?
Charitable foundations can replace ALL Fed Gov social welfare programs. Let society vote with their wallets. Let's see what society actually values, instead of what they're forced to value via threat of asset confiscation and/or imprisonment.
Simply not true and actually the notion is backwards, because we relied on charity for a long time to help people in need before many of these programs were forced into being. Charity couldn't cut it. Not by a long shot! Or we would not have been forced to come up with supplemental assistance programs provided by the government in a more sustainable, trustworthy and effective manner.
Thinking we can just count on charity is a conservatives' favorite wet dream. I would love to share that dream along with the one about peace on Earth, but that's all it is. A dream that conservatives prefer to imagine rather than face the reality of what we're actually dealing with, the challenges every country must deal with when it comes to addressing poverty, IF they ARE going to address poverty like most advanced modern societies tend to do.
Or show me which countries seem to rely on charity instead and how that's working for them...
Anybody using tax refund as a yard stick to measure how well the tax cut works is either a moron, a dishonest person or both!
In my opinion, that person should not be allowed to vote.
You don't need tax cut to receive refunds. Just pay more taxes than you are legally obligated before you file your return, you will get a bigger refund.
I know what you are smacking your head about, but in all fairness I also think you need to consider more than what immediately smacks you in the face here...
Lots of average Americans keep the same old job with the same old wage with the same old tax deductions that result in the same old refund year after year, if they are lucky enough to get one. That or its a new job with the same old wage and old tax deductions that keeps everything else constant except for what Trump was promising them to expect with his new tax plan.
That promise we now know is not truly materializing as promised for all those Americans who also believed in Trump in this regard, though I'm not sure how many Americans were really counting on this relief in any significant way.
My sense of it anyway. This is not about the people who earn income at the higher levels, with capital gains and CPAs and all the rest that most average Americans in the bottom half of the economic strata don't enjoy or understand too well. Right?
Who are you to say? No one has the authority to pass said judgment on anyone.
Sounds like another no mo guboment slogan, but really?
Again I truly marvel at people who seem to think they need to explain to ANYONE in this forum that NO ONE gets to decide ANYTHING for ANYONE else in this forum. Can't control what people think either! Who needs such a thing explained to them?
Our founding fathers established our three branches of government to establish exactly that authority to broker and establish what "we the people" want according to exactly that sort of judgement, by way of a democratic, representative process.
What else is the exchange of opinion in this forum about if not about that?
The point sailed right over your head. Point being if there were no taxes and everyone had the ability to "vote with their wallets", and more importantly, there were no tax deductions for charity (since there wouldn't be taxes that would need deducting from), most people would spend the money on consumer goods and toys, and charity would dry up. No one would voluntarily contribute to the big needs in society
No one has any idea what would happen if that conservative dream from who-knows-where should actually come to pass, but for the best guess I think you'd have to look back in time, like back to the Dark Ages...
Why would I? I have no problem with paying a toll on toll roads. Neither should anyone else.
You really can't be serious...
Drives me nuts when driving through areas where you have to slow up and deal with a toll every few miles, but at least we now have electronic ways to read and charge for those tolls. Now too it seems we might have to pay tolls just to get in a lane where traffic is moving, but at least that helps promote car pooling and less pollution.
More importantly, however, I'd hate to think what these tolls would look like in the more rural areas where the roads are longer and traveled by far fewer. Just like the economics don't work out the same for a post office in the more remote areas compared to big city downtown, or the water distribution system..., just for starters.
Seems a lot of people are good at dreaming in this forum but not so good at math. That or they really don't get out and about much...
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