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Although this list is obviously outdated (includes long-gone members such as John Conyers). I can't find out for sure whether Bernie is a current member. It doesn't really matter, as there are other ways to pin down Bernie's ideological beliefs.
The economy must be run democratically; none shall be poor so another can be rich.
As it stands, the overwhelming majority of people have little power over the nature of their work or their compensation for it. We demand that people have control over how they work, when they work and how their labor is applied
In other words, yes, collectivization of the means of production.
When AOC and Bernie cite Sweden as their desired model, they are either being ignorant or mendacious. But that's a matter of speculation. What we do know for sure is that they are WRONG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007
So, they are WRONG to advocate a policy model which has had spectacular success?
(I re-copied the context that you deleted from your quote of me).
Jeez Louise Do not shove words into other posters mouths. I hate that
Obviously what I meant, if you read the context that you deleted, is that they are wrong to equate Sweden and socialism. The Danish PM said the same thing regarding Bernie and Denmark. Do a search on CD, and the quote will come up.
People think they are so clever by using disingenuous tactics such as shoving words into others' mouths. In reality, all they do is make themselves look dumb, since such things are easily checked in this era of the web.
I share that view actually. After all it doesn't say that there can't be rich people, it only says there can't be rich people at the expense of poor people.
Let me try to explain socialism to leftists like they are 5:
You get a toy on your 5th birthday. You own it. It's 100% yours.
But your mom tells you if, when, and for long you can play with it. She keeps it on the shelf. She controls it. She's your government.
It's yours, but she doesn't need to own it to control it.
Ergo, you don't need ownership of the means of production to do what you want with it. If you can control/regulate activity without owning the objects of activity, guess what, you still own it.
So stop already trying to pigeonhole government control of a thing to a rote definition of socialism when that's not how socialism is implemented in the contemporary world.
With sufficient regulation, 'private ownership' of the means of production can become a legal fiction. This is where fascism (gov't control of the means of production) morphs into socialism (gov't ownership of the means of production).
However, see the link back in post #1. Business is actually much less regulated in Sweden than in, say, the US.
As academic and 'social democracy' advocate Lane Kenworthy writes in his book Social Democratic America, Sweden's aim generally is to make it easy to start a business, easy to shutter a business, easy to hire an employee, and easy to fire an employee. Sweden's minimum wage? They don't have one.
They are a social democracy. People who call them socialist, typically have no idea what socialism is.
As for Bernie Sanders, he promotes the nordic model (and keeps saying he does) but mistakenly calls is democratic socialism, which tends to say even he does not know what socialism is. He is not promoting actual socialism where the government owns and operates means of production.
It is often true that Joe sixpack often doesn't understand what socialism is. I refuse to believe that is the case with a sitting US Senator who has scads of 6 figure staffers with PhDs advising him. Bernie knows. He deliberately conflates 'socialism' and 'social democracy' as a kind of smokescreen.
OP quick question for you, since you are knowledgeable. Bernie is a self-described 'socialist,' although I've seen some say that he is really more of a social democrat (a la Scandinavia). The Danish PM once chided Bernie for referring to Denmark as socialist, which the PM said it is definitely not. Do you consider Bernie to be a real socialist? And if not, why do you think he uses that term?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324
His policies are of a social democrat, but deep down he is a socialist.
This isn't me theorizing, this is from his past affiliations and work (he is very old of course) with socialist groups.
He decided around the time he became Mayor to promote social democratic policies to make himself a viable politician, but in terms of end goal he still sees himself as a socialist.
That is why he plays fast and loose with the two terms.
BTW, 'Winterfall,' is a knowledgeable poster, and as far as I can tell, a persuaded socialist and Bernie supporter.
With sufficient regulation, 'private ownership' of the means of production can become a legal fiction. This is where fascism (gov't control of the means of production) morphs into socialism (gov't ownership of the means of production).
However, see the link back in post #1. Business is actually much less regulated in Sweden than in, say, the US.
As academic and 'social democracy' advocate Lane Kenworthy writes in his book Social Democratic America, Sweden's aim generally is to make it easy to start a business, easy to shutter a business, easy to hire an employee, and easy to fire an employee. Sweden's minimum wage? They don't have one.
Again, simplistic views. Here someone explains why in effect there are minimum wages in Sweden:
the quora article mentions Unions which is enough to make a conservatives head explode....
European capitalism is of a different flavor than US short-term casino capitalism..IMO
and perhaps its my bias against southern heritage states rights people and what i perceive as their backwardness...BUT the ability to simply move to the south and avoid higher local taxes AND union type laws is also a factor in "our" more backwards capitalism
That Sweden has no minimum wage isn't a "simplistic view." It's just a fact. For you, are facts "simplistic views?"
Yes, the reason they don't have a minimum wage is largely because of heavy unionization, as I have posted several times previously on CD. IIRC a Swedish worker in the private sector is about 10 times more likely to be union than in the US.
Not only conservatives, but also US liberals have overseen a long and steady decline in private sector unionization to the current pathetic level of about 6%. Democrats had the trifecta in 2008, and did nothing about the problem, as I have pointed out: https://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...m-federal.html
That Sweden has no minimum wage isn't a "simplistic view." It's just a fact. For you, are facts "simplistic views?"
Yes, the reason they don't have a minimum wage is largely because of heavy unionization, as I have posted several times previously on CD. IIRC a Swedish worker in the private sector is about 10 times more likely to be union than in the US.
Not only conservatives, but also US liberals have overseen a long and steady decline in private sector unionization to the current pathetic level of about 6%. Democrats had the trifecta in 2008, and did nothing about the problem, as I have pointed out: https://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...m-federal.html
Sweden does have a minimum wage, several actually, whose values depend on the collective agreements between unions and companies. What Sweden does not have is a global, national minimum wage. But what for when you have various specific ones for all kinds of people and constellations?
The important thing is that everybody is covered, except for highly qualified people who however earn so much that they don't need a minimum wage to begin with. The purpose of a minimum wage is to protect low-wage earners, after all.
I am not saying that is the only way. If a country has a global, national minimum wage, the union approach is not necessary, at least not in terms of minimum wage.
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