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The murder of Jamal Khashoggi came at a cost of Saudi isolation. Trump played a role in stopping that isolation. He may have called in that favor. Using Cesarean/Machiavellian techniques in a bid to make peace in the Middle East....
There would never be justice for Jamal Khashoggi, but it was converted into another currency that ostensibly appears to save lives.
Nonsense. Dozens of groups and tribes have always lived in that region, and ALL of their descendants are still alive. The Old Testament itself lists the groups that lived in the area. No one has a claim on land based on a thousand year old land claim.
Nations have land claims based on their power to jack it from others and hold it militarily. It’s violent irredentism. That’s all. There are no legitimate land claims based on divinity. God never gave anyone a land.
There was no such nation as Israel until 1948. Simple as that. It’s called ethnic cleansing, and having the military might to execute it. In other words, israel is in the same company as any other established nation. They strongarmed the land, cleansed the portions they desired of non Jews, built on it, and tenaciously defended it which they do until this day.
Basically the same way every other nation established itself.
Your post is internally inconsistent. Why is Israel worse than any other country?
Your post here and liking the subsequent post, #284, says you are still lying.
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Originally Posted by Neuling
I am not a PRC apologist, I am a PRC supporter, as any decent person should be.
Despite the mullahs, Iran actually is the good guy in this whole ME mess, has been for decades. I prefer Iranians to Arabs any time. The latter will sell their own mothers if necessary.
I might be getting my anti-Israel liberal posters mixed up, by weren’t you the one who said the whole thing was a show to pander to the Jew vote? (Correct me if I’m wrong and it was another anti-Israel poster.) I ask because once a liberal introduces Jews into the discussion, and not in a positive way, I don’t engage further.
No, that was not me. But I don't get what your reply has to do with my post you replied to.
Although it was not me, I definitely agree with whoever said it has to do with the election.
Nor do I get it when people try to separate Israel from Jews. One can't discuss one without the other as the auto-racism of being a Jew is closely tied to the Zionist attitude of Israel.
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Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
And this is why people are starting to say, "Screw the Palestinians. We have had enough."
Because as you clearly stated, they have no interest in a 2 state solution, only a 1 state solution where they are in charge.
Since they are by far, the weaker of the two, they will never get the 1 state solution they want. And now that the stronger of the 2 are taking their "allies" from them, they won't even get what they would have gotten before.
Nobody is starting to say screw the Palestinians. The countries that have supported a separate Palestine in the old borders, continue to do so, nobody has abandoned that.
The return of the Palestinians does not contradict the 2-state solution at all.
Actually, I am not necessarily in favor of a 2-state solution. I could imagine a Levantine Union that includes Palestine, Israel, Syria and the Lebanon, based on the ancient Levant.
Also, why do some people always put it as if some peoples have the right to have a country of their own, but others not. I don't see anyone stand up for Catalonia, Kurdistan etc. as separate countries.
Jews are not some museum object. If they lived in the same state as the Palestinians and mixed, so what? Why do Jews have to be preserved any more than other peoples around the world? I think that is a rather racist attitude.
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Originally Posted by jbgusa
I am a radical leftist myself but I still can't agree with you.
I don't know how old you are but I bet you were skeptical at best, hostile at worst, to the Anwar Sadat rapprochement with the State of Israel. For that matter, I doubt you were cheering at the drop in oil prices after Reagan decontrolled prices eight days into his term. I don't understand why your side of the aisle seems to cheer-lead for bad things to happen to the West. I am sure you oppose the use of HCQ to tame the coronavirus and want lockdowns to go on endlessly.
Does your side of the discussion on these issues hate the West and hate the United States of America?
In light of current developments, I will add, a diminishing number of countries. The countries most successful in modern times, such as Singapore, Japan, South Korea etc. seem to have no real problem with Israel. Even the PRC only lends rhetorical opposition to Israel but has full diplomatic relations.
I don't mind Israel, I am not against it, if it were a good country, which it isn't, unfortunately. But basically I don't care about Israel, I do care about Palestinians and any other people that are treated unfairly.
You are again mixing things. One does not have to do with the other. A country can have diplomatic relations with Israel and at the same time support the Palestinian cause. That is what virtually all European countries have been doing for decades, and nothing will change that.
Well, although about 1/3rd of Americans are nice people, I do agree with Iran that the US as a country is the devil.
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Originally Posted by earthlyfather
Your post here and liking the subsequent post, #284, says you are still lying.
Not sure what you mean. I don't see any contradiction.
Aren't there some Hittites, Amelkites and Jebusites floating around?
All kidding aside, but someone made a speech or wrote in a book that the Hebrews are the only ones of these ancient civilizations that are not a mere footnote in history. Some, that remain, are insignificant, such as the Zoroastrians. The Hebrews, Jews, whatever you call them, punch far above their weight for their minuscule numbers.
It's easy when the world's biggest bully keeps destroying everyone around. And the Syrians, Egyptians, Persians, etc. are still there. And it helps when you get a lot of money and arms from abroad for decades. And of course if you have a Holocaust to use for emotional blackmail.
Nor were the Hebrews an ancient civilization, that is a hopelessly bloated narrative. They were a tiny local kingdom.
I doubt there’s a name of any nation, town, village or hamlet in the Middle East or Levant that doesn’t go back to biblical times. The Bible only covers a very tiny part of the world geographically, which really goes to the Bible’s veracity, or extreme lack thereof.
But yeah, we know the term Israel is old. But that’s not saying much. From what i can ascertain from my memories of Biblical teaching, Israel was always more of an idea that was relatively briefly realized for a time before it fell.
But that aside, I think it’s dangerous to make foreign policy based on Bible prophecies or prophecies from any other religious text.
Fair enough, and I’m not a religious person myself, but it shreds the idea that the nation of Israel is purely a modern day invention.
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Exactly.
Though I disagree with you on the Arabs, it’s clear to me that the Iranians aren’t the problem and never have been. If the United States had never gotten involved in the Mossadegh Affair, Iran would STILL be our best friend in the region. Easily.
The Iranians don’t despise us for who we are, but for what we did.
Every player in the Middle East is objectively speaking a bad actor, whether they be domestic ones or foreign players.
The Mossadegh affair is a very complicated thing in itself. For starters, Mossadegh himself was a usurper. Remember that the Shah had been ruling Iran since 1941. He was not put into power in 1953 as many sources try to claim, while ignoring the Shah’s prior reign. He originally came to power when his father was forced to abdicate
Mossadegh was the Shah’s prime minister. He thought the Shah was too incompetent and decided to try and overthrow him. The Shah’s twin sister Ashraf Pahlavi played a pivotal role in organizing the 1953 coup.
Moving forward to 1979, the Ayatollah in exile, had promised to establish a secular democracy upon his return to Tehran. That didn’t happen as he had different plans all along. He established a theocracy.
Contrary to popular belief, the breakdown in relationship between the US and Iran didn’t happen as a result of the 1953 affair, but over the hostage crisis. The Iranians took the staff hostage as a means to try and force the US to hand over the Shah to Iran in order to face trial. One of the Ayatollah’s top advisers openly criticised the hostage situation and blamed it for the rise in hostilities.
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Who in Iran screams “death to Israel?”
The overwhelming majority of Iranians don’t concern themselves with Israel whatsoever. A few crazed fanatics aren’t worth the attention you give them.
There are just as many Israelis who would wipe Iran off the map if they could. So it’s even.
It’s mostly propaganda conducted by the regime. You have to remember that many Iranians despise the regime and Islam as a religion. Persia has a long history that predates the Arab conquest and the arrival of Islam.
It's easy when the world's biggest bully keeps destroying everyone around. And the Syrians, Egyptians, Persians, etc. are still there. And it helps when you get a lot of money and arms from abroad for decades. And of course if you have a Holocaust to use for emotional blackmail.
Nor were the Hebrews an ancient civilization, that is a hopelessly bloated narrative. They were a tiny local kingdom.
The ME, and not only, has had two major problems for a long time now: Western imperialism/colonialism and Islam.
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