Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Oh, but it is. I came of age in the 1980s and remember it well. The American left drooled all over the Soviet Union back then. Everyone was equal! No homeless people living in the streets! Communism was "fairer" than Capitalism! Universal education!
I rather doubt that. There were a few hardcore upper-case-C Communists paid by Soviets, but most of the debate was (very successfully) framed by the Right: If you dared to point out the excesses of capitalism, you were just longing to be taken over by the Soviets.
Gay rights? You're a Communist. Long hair? You're a Communist. Against segregated schools? Oh, you're no doubt a Communist. Pro-Union? Communism! That was done very well, and seems to have worked.
Quote:
And let's not forget the anti-America demonstrations in Western Europe as well as here, with people complaining that we dared to defend them with our missiles.
A bunch of Europeans had a slight issue with US warheads being deployed for the purpose of going off in Europe. In fact, there was a bit of irritation that the US and the USSR looked at Europe being a great spot to settle their differences. I mostly disagreed, but the concern wasn't entirely unfounded.
Quote:
Remember "Star Wars"? Sure, its proper name was the Strategic Defense Initiative
People called Reagan's unrealistic and expensive boondoggle an unrealistic and expensive boondoggle?
There were fringes compleetly being pro-Soviet, but by far the larger proportion of the left just wanted to perhaps push back a little bit on the "Greed is Good" concentration of wealth that really got its kickstart during the Reagan years.
That the USSR even lasted as long as it did was amazing. I owe it to the corruption and black market system, mixed with a strong camaraderie like attitude among the rank and file. I think WW2 and the Cold War afterwards ultimately made the USSR extend its life by a few decades, nothing like a national crisis to unite everyone.
This is true. Clawing their way out of the Czar era to be able to kick the Wehrmacht's teeth in just a few decades later was no mean feat. But they sort of meandered after losing a credible outside enemy. Hard to tell the people that they can't have cars because tanks are more important - when it's so obvious that there aren't any tanks waiting to roll towards Moscow any more.
As some wag said, once Gorbachev shook hands with both Ronalds - Reagan and McDonald - the empire was bound to crumble. And the dominoes started falling. Some East German apparatchik misread his orders, opened the border, and people weren't going to go back to Trabants and having bananas only occasionally.
That the USSR even lasted as long as it did was amazing. I owe it to
the Soviet oil industry. At the end the USSR was a petro state.
The proximate reason for Soviet economic collapse was when the Saudis decided to pump more oil in the 80s, lowering the price. I've often wondered what arm twisting went into that decision, but we kept up our end of the bargain during the Gulf War.
It's always been funny to me how people could be dumb enough to STILL be socialism apologists to this day. I have yet to meet or see any socialist who was both intelligent and honest. Those socialists who are intelligent, know it's a grift and the rest are morons.
Liberals in the U.S. are either ignorant of the whole thing, or trying to brush it all under the rug and pretend that the destruction of their far-left style of government in one of the largest countries on Earth is no big deal, nothing to see here, move along now.
.
Why would liberals want to brush it under the rug? We all rejoiced when the Berlin Wall came down and when Soviet communism fell.
Did the Soviet Union really collapse or did they just decide they want to do things differently?
Western media of course uses strong words like collapse, but I just dont see that. They made a pretty seemless transition to dictatorship, and oligarchy.
Its basically the same thing as communism except you get more consumer choices.
The difference is the same as choosing between shopping and Aldi's or Shop Rite.
They merely downsized changed tactics and became leaner and meaner. Too many buy the manufactured illusion the the USSR/Communism died but in the VERY near future Russia will with its pal Red China and a host of their proxies will roll.
This is true. Clawing their way out of the Czar era to be able to kick the Wehrmacht's teeth in just a few decades later was no mean feat. But they sort of meandered after losing a credible outside enemy. Hard to tell the people that they can't have cars because tanks are more important - when it's so obvious that there aren't any tanks waiting to roll towards Moscow any more.
As some wag said, once Gorbachev shook hands with both Ronalds - Reagan and McDonald - the empire was bound to crumble. And the dominoes started falling. Some East German apparatchik misread his orders, opened the border, and people weren't going to go back to Trabants and having bananas only occasionally.
Yes, the differences became more so as technology increased, consumption in the West increased. A micro example would be cars, where in the 30's and 40's, the number of cars in the West were no where near the number in the 80's, same with air conditioning for example. When no one really has these things, all seems more similar, when one side has these things and the other side does not, the differences are a lot more noticable.
At some point, mainly the late 50's through the early 60's, the USSR seemed to stop progressing, stop refining itself regarding every day consumerism, quality of life. Sure, they developed tanks and warplanes, but A damn dump truck built in 1965 looked and was basically the same as one built in 1985. Air conditioning? That did not even come to us rank and file folks until after the USSR, lol.
The USSR became a mindset of we have been getting along fine without it, so why have it now, basically the same mentality under the tsar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist
the Soviet oil industry. At the end the USSR was a petro state.
The proximate reason for Soviet economic collapse was when the Saudis decided to pump more oil in the 80s, lowering the price. I've often wondered what arm twisting went into that decision, but we kept up our end of the bargain during the Gulf War.
True, but was speaking more to the macro thing. Even having peak exports and energy income would not have saved anything, just made it limp along at best. There is no way the Soviet energy industry was going to make the USSR like Saudi Arabia for example.
They merely downsized changed tactics and became leaner and meaner. Too many buy the manufactured illusion the the USSR/Communism died but in the VERY near future Russia will with its pal Red China and a host of their proxies will roll.
It did die. Russia today has little in common with the USSR, and would say it is quite polar opposite of it, with its plutocracy. The only country that remotely resembles the USSR is Belarus.
Russia and China are not "pals" in the sense like the US and Canada are, they border each other, thus by that need to get along. But no doubt Russia withdrew from (forget what treaty), so they can stage intermediate range missiles due to the growing threat with China.
The Soviet economy faltered because the Soviet government imposed huge taxes and fees.
Imagine that you bring $5,000 in profits each month to your company, but your salary is only $500.
The company must give the remaining $4,500 to the government, so it could pay for your "free" apartment.
Then, you can say, "I'll work much harder in order to bring another $5,000 to the company." But the boss will reply, "You'll earn only $50 more."
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
