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forget about that flag, flag is not the issue. He likes what he likes.
The issue here is that people need to come here legally. Respect our immigration law, this is the first step of being a proud american. You come here to become american, no?
Most of us were born here in the u.s., there are also people in various nations that are highly educated and follow the legal processes, cannot get here.
What does it say to them that you can come here illegally and be treated with “great compassion” and those who follow the rules, but due to their geography are at a disadvantage.
See, the great thing about almost any advanced country in the West is that you can fly a flag of any country or organization you want on your own property; it's none of anyone's business.
People in other industrialized countries enjoy most of the same freedoms we do. In my hometown of Toronto, one of the top most diverse cities on the planet, you can go into its huge Chinatown or Little Italy, or into Little Portugal or Greektown, or any other if its rich, vibrant ethnic neighborhoods filled with immigrants, and you'll see plenty of international flags. No one minds. It's a non-issue.
And none of that is the point.
The primary issue here is illegal immigration. You take a very philosophical stance on it. But, imo, illegal immigration is a major reason why we don't have universal healthcare in this country, something which citizens of every other advanced country in the world take for granted. It's not about being "punitive on people who simply want what we all have." It's about taking proper care of our own citizens before trying to be the saviors of the world.
The second (and minor) issue is the flag waving. We're talking about an academic graduation here, not a sporting event.
America used to believe in walking and chewing gum at the same time. We've become unbelievably cynical. Right now we're choosing not to take care of our citizens, while also just pretending the illegal immigration problem doesn't exist. I'm not putting that on Biden or Trump, we've been ignoring it since the 1980's.
This country goes crazy on St. Patricks day and suddenly everyone talks about their great great grandad's cousin and how they're Irish etc, waving the Irish flag in one hand and a Guinness in the other.
Someone celebrating with the flag of their parents and it's strange?
It's a hell of a lot different when one is here illegally and waves their country's flag in our faces. What part of that don't you get?
And they are proud of that heritage. You see Scottish, Irish, Norwegian, Italian flags all over this nation. As soon as that flag is Mexican, it elicits a negative response.
Once again, it depends on who is flying the Mexican flag or any other foreign flag. If they are here illegally then it is offensive!
America used to believe in walking and chewing gum at the same time. We've become unbelievably cynical. Right now we're choosing not to take care of our citizens, while also just pretending the illegal immigration problem doesn't exist. I'm not putting that on Biden or Trump, we've been ignoring it since the 1980's.
And the fact clearly is that America CAN'T walk and chew gum at the same time, because in a number of QOL factors -- access to healthcare and other family friendly social policies, infrastructure, public transit , we rank behind almost every other advanced country.
Countries like Canada and Australia are, like the US, immigrant countries. In fact, a greater percentage of their populations see immigrants.
But they are more selective about who they allow in. They don't undermine their own citizens. Can't have a solid social safety net AND wide open borders. Choose one.
Why is this so hard for American liberals to grasp?
There's a lot to respond to, so I'll put my responses in the body of the quote in bold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981
Nations have borders for a reason, especially nations with a social welfare system. You cannot have social welfare and other public goods paid for by tax payers and then have open borders at the same time. This is something the politicians do not want to talk about.
Agree. Migrants are a strain on social welfare systems in other countries. There is some strain on our system from illegal immigrants, but at the same time, most illegal immigrants pay into Medicare and Social Security, with no expectation of every getting payouts (because they're using phony SS numbers on their W2s). At the end of the day, this is not the biggest problem of illegal immigration in the USA.
People make choices, and life is rarely fair. I never decided to violate the laws in any nations I lived or put myself in a bad situation.
Never? I believe you may be able to cast a stone on Mary Magdalene!
I was born in the U.S. and even my grandparents of both sides were born here in the States. I grew up in Germany, Japan, mainland China, and bunch of other countries. Very confusing, but i am a third culture kid.
In every one of those nations, if ANYONE overstayed their visa and was caught they would be deported. In some of them they might do some jail time, and then get deported. If ONE had a kid with another foreigner who was illegal, those kids would not have citizenship, and no one would think this was a human right violation. Either you respect the law, or you don't. There really is no gray area.
See, I think China and Japan's immigration policies are truly awful, and they will suffer consequences of that. I'm glad to not live in East Asian countries, who have different legal traditions than us. I'm glad we are not so brutal.
We never controlled the borders or developed a process to track people.
Conservatives used to think this was a good thing. (the second part)
Some people say, "Oh,we need the labor from illegals”. No. We do not. If the farmers cannot grow these crops without exploiting illegal workers then basic economics tells us we no longer have a compare advantage and that work should be done in Africa, Southeast Asia, and Latin America, and it would be cheaper for us to buy it from them.
So you are in favor of outsourcing food? I'm sorry, this is the worst of your opinions. This is awful policy. For economic reasons, for national security reasons, for logical reasons. One of our nation's strengths is our farming industry. If Thanos snapped his fingers and disappeared all illegal immigrants, farms would go untended, food prices would skyrocket, restaurants would go out of business. Our economy would literally crash. This is probably why no one has ever done anything about illegal immigration, despite strengthening borders and going tough on illegal immigrants are broadly popular policies. So you're absolutely wrong. We need illegal immigrants to tend our farms and work in our restaurants, because the Invisible Hand has encouraged this over the last 40 years. I agree, we need major reform on migrant worker programs and temporary visas. We need to be honest, our economy needs these workers, so we may as well tax them and track them. The only other solution would be to provide subsidies to farms and restaurants that hire Americans, but even as I type that it sounds rife for fraud, so IDK, come up with a better idea than mass deportation.
Last but not least, Democratic leadership mostly care about illegal immigrants because they know these people will have kids that will vote 2/3 Democratic. If the parents are legalized they will likely vote the same.
Maybe you're right. But latinos, and Mexicans especially are often a) deeply religious; and b) small business owners. That's GOP bread and butter right there. And, truth be told, the group with which Trump made his best gains between 2016 and 2020 are latinos. Trust me, this makes Democrats very nervous. If the GOP took up DACA, many latinos could swing right. Even if you don't think it's possible, Democrats are worried about it.
End Birth Right Immigration - most developed nations (approx. 90%) do not have it. It’s an antiquated system.
I'm not going to come out in favor one way or the other (I don't feel too strongly about it), but Birthright Citizenship is baked into the Constitution, so it would require an Amendment. So good luck.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am trying to focus on debating actual policy. Not too many on C-D oblige, so I appreciate it.
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