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To OP.
No. March 22nd was the proverbial point of no return. Thereafter, there will be no pacts, no discussions, no treaties. Ukraine can join whatever it will be accepted to, being as toxic, as it is asset. It does not matter. Russian stem roller gained full momentum and does not really have brakes.
A HUGE part of Russian foreign policy and political ideology is based on the fear of invasion and threats from the west. This fear is not unwarranted, as Russia HAS been attacked from the west at several times in its history, resulting in the deaths of millions and massive destruction. It is this fear that has formed the basis for many Russian policies that seem inexplicable to the west. Despite our support of Ukraine in the face of external aggression, Ukraine has not historically been on "the right side of history". Ukraine had engaged in genocide and ethnic cleansing of Poles and Jews in its past, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Ukranians were, in many instances, supporters of less than benevolent forces, in embracing Nazi Germany and supplying hundreds of thousands of troops in that effort, including two SS divisions.
The conflict in Ukraine is partially a result of this continued fear of the west and partially based on OIL. Ukraine sits on vast amounts of untapped oil and gas reserves which Russia desires.
A shrewd political move would be to offer NATO membership to both Russia and Ukraine. NATO members not only cannot attack each other, but have a mutual defense pact, in which an attack on one NATO member is an attack on all. Such a proposal would be a radical departure from the traditional approach of assuming that Russian policy and agendas will ALWAYS be in opposition to those of NATO, thus a policy of seeking measures to isolate and oppose any Russian policies.
A "long shot", but one that could radically change the world geo-political situation and pry China's biggest ally from them. Russia is a dying nation that has a falling population and is a shadow of its former self, yet still a threat to western nations, given its huge nuclear arsenal and tremendous natural resources. A different approach to seek common ground may be a route to consider.
PS- I am NOT a Russia apologist and feel as though we SHOULD support Ukraine in the face of Russian aggression in the current political situation. This is in recognition of all the "warts" of the current Ukranian government and its checkered history.
Having Russia in NATO would be like hiring a serial killer to be a security guard, but on a macro-level. It won't fix anything, and will create new dangers.
A HUGE part of Russian foreign policy and political ideology is based on the fear of invasion and threats from the west.
Well, that's certainly the rationale being presented. It's BS.
But let's look at who's been doing the invading over the last half-century or so. We could ask the Poles. Or the Czechs. Or the Baltic states.
Actual current Russian foreign policy and ideology is based on the idea that the old Eastern Bloc was a natural arrangement, that they have some sort of right to be the dominating power in Eastern Europe. Well, they can go pound sand. The "fear of invasion" is a thin lacquer of justification over their imperial ambitions.
"We're afraid of invasion, so we need to rule over you!" Bugger that.
Oh, and as a practical matter, all NATO members would have to sign off. You think Poland or Estonia is going to shake hands with Putin's Russia?
I understand it annoys people like you that the Rodina can't run Eastern Europe any more, but you never had the right. Time to reach the Acceptance Stage: Russia is a former superpower.
I understand it annoys people like you that the Rodina can't run Eastern Europe any more, but you never had the right. Time to reach the Acceptance Stage: Russia is a former superpower.
Sure, sing it with me, Croatia Uber Alles!
Outside of Germany, Poland, and Türkiye, which (if any) of these Eastern European countries really matters in a strategic sense? Are any of them worth fighting WWIII?
Outside of Germany, Poland, and Türkiye, which (if any) of these Eastern European countries really matters in a strategic sense? Are any of them worth fighting WWIII?
Not sure what your point is. Pretty sure Croatia or Estonia matter a bit to, y'know, Croatians or Estonians. Now I do sense that "really matters in a strategic sense" should read "matters to meeee as an American", and that's one of those questions that are hard to answer ahead of time. Why should it matter that some unpopular archduke got himself shot in a Balkan backwater no one could find on a map in 1914? When large countries feel safe moving borders by invasion, bad things can happen very quickly.
I don't want to be on the hook for either Russia or Ukraine.
I don't trust Putin or Zelensky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thulsa
The Ukraine invasion was never about NATO.
Ukraine joining the European Union was a much bigger threat to Putin and his cronies, but the invasion was always just an armed robbery and a land grab.
Putin's peace deal to Ukraine that was rejected said Ukraine could join the EU but not NATO.
NATO should open up its borders to accept all nations who are interested in joining….….making it an UN-equivalent military organization.
What do you all think?
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….making it an UN-equivalent military organization. 
