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While I disagree with the limiting of profiteering, I'll concede that point for the moment. However, when you say that 100 years of lobby efforts has gotten us hooked on oil, what other substance on earth is so energy dense? Certainly nuclear sources, but we can not run vehicles directly from fission. Now, plug-ins and a nuclear power grid is another issue. I think its turning a blind eye to reality, though, to say that since the creation of the automobile that gasoline wasn't the cheapest, most efficient, most economical source of energy to run those cars.
There is no doubt in my mind that oil was the best bet for a very long time, but even before those days were seeing it's limits, suppression of technology was taking place. Collusive relationships that undermined public transportation projects in california as far back as 1900's are an example.
The problem with conservative mentality is their unwillingness to see when a horse has seen better days, and insist on beating that old money lucky horse to keep life the same. It's not the same. Yes, renewables investments are dicey, but as placing bets go, betting on standard oil is expecting history to repeat itself within the same industry. The very thing that gave them abundance was innovation, but they want to cling to that spent innovation falsely, even if it sinks our entire economy in the process.
American auto mfg and big oil have vested interests in keeping us backwards and dependant, and Bush policy of laissez fare was abandoned to protect them from... californias electric car. Smarter oil companies are investing in diversity, clearly seeing the writing on the wall- the same energy pie is there, it just can't be sustained with oil infinitely. Smarter american auto mfg were doing the same, but with cement blocks on their feet as conservative element in house rooting for failure.
Compare this to computers. Had IBM taken the route to hamstring microsoft, the advances in technology we're currently enjoying would be non existant. The old dos prompt is a dinosaur rightfully so. The free market spoke earnestly, participated, and the price of computers has come down considerably due to volume. When bill gates went as far to create a monopoly himself (hypocritically creating laws that would have protected IBM from his own abuse of them), ostensibly hamstringing all other computer companies, he did a diservice to the industry & consumers, and was charged with anti trust violations. Where would computers be today if not for these tilted games undermining a true free market?
I'd like you to consider what the ramifications would be if this weren't oil, but something equally vital to life- water as a commodity. If I controlled all water, I could decide that 80% of your income was mine by price setting, holding a myriad of industries hostage right along with you (farming, fisheries, car wash, swimming pool companies etc). You think this can't happen? They've already tried it in south american countries & revolts took place. There has to be limits imposed on free markets so consumers don't become victimized, and those limits have everything to do with keeping a free market truly free.
Because abuses are happening on an international scale, our jurisdiction is limited, and we cannot help ourselves directly as result with exception of taking a more isolationist approach toward energy for now. We have to change our own future with our own hands as a nation. Our wastefulness needs to end, and control of our own vital assets restored to prevent political vulnerability & economic collapse. Reckless deregulation has infinitely harmed us by a government who continuously excuses itself from consumer protection as a subcategory of providing common defense.
There is no doubt in my mind that oil was the best bet for a very long time, but even before those days were seeing it's limits, suppression of technology was taking place. Collusive relationships that undermined public transportation projects in california as far back as 1900's are an example.
The problem with conservative mentality is their unwillingness to see when a horse has seen better days, and insist on beating that old money lucky horse to keep life the same. It's not the same. Yes, renewables investments are dicey, but as placing bets go, betting on standard oil is expecting history to repeat itself within the same industry. The very thing that gave them abundance was innovation, but they want to cling to that spent innovation falsely, even if it sinks our entire economy in the process.
American auto mfg and big oil have vested interests in keeping us backwards and dependant, and Bush policy of laissez fare was abandoned to protect them from... californias electric car. Smarter oil companies are investing in diversity, clearly seeing the writing on the wall- the same energy pie is there, it just can't be sustained with oil infinitely. Smarter american auto mfg were doing the same, but with cement blocks on their feet as conservative element in house rooting for failure.
Compare this to computers. Had IBM taken the route to hamstring microsoft, the advances in technology we're currently enjoying would be non existant. The old dos prompt is a dinosaur rightfully so. The free market spoke earnestly, participated, and the price of computers has come down considerably due to volume. When bill gates went as far to create a monopoly himself (hypocritically creating laws that would have protected IBM from his own abuse of them), ostensibly hamstringing all other computer companies, he did a diservice to the industry & consumers, and was charged with anti trust violations. Where would computers be today if not for these tilted games undermining a true free market?
I'd like you to consider what the ramifications would be if this weren't oil, but something equally vital to life- water as a commodity. If I controlled all water, I could decide that 80% of your income was mine by price setting, holding a myriad of industries hostage right along with you (farming, fisheries, car wash, swimming pool companies etc). You think this can't happen? They've already tried it in south american countries & revolts took place. There has to be limits imposed on free markets so consumers don't become victimized, and those limits have everything to do with keeping a free market truly free.
Because abuses are happening on an international scale, our jurisdiction is limited, and we cannot help ourselves directly as result with exception of taking a more isolationist approach toward energy for now. We have to change our own future with our own hands as a nation. Our wastefulness needs to end, and control of our own vital assets restored to prevent political vulnerability & economic collapse. Reckless deregulation has infinitely harmed us by a government who continuously excuses itself from consumer protection as a subcategory of providing common defense.
Indeed, consumer protection is vital. With regards to your example, water, if a single entity controlled the resource and the means of distribution I would be forced to pay whatever sums they requested. However, if the resource was free to whoever could tap it and distribution was the issue, obviously a cheaper alternative, if it could be found, would rule the day. With oil, even as its price increases year after year, its STILL the cheapest, most efficient form of transportation fuel currently available. On that point, I think you will agree. With regards to government's role in consumer protection, if a need exists, then steps must be taken to correct abuse. However, we must weigh the law of unintended consequences against true abuse, for the government solution to a problem is usually worse than the problem.
In this case, however, an entire economy grew around a resource that seemed to have no end, and which was vastly cheaper than any other form of fuel available. We have all taken advantage of this and made choices accordingly. Now that the rest of the world wants to capitalize and grow their economies (and rightly so) we cry foul, because their demand outstips supply and raises our price. The only way to solve this solution, is to innovate once again. On this point we agree. However, collusion by big oil to stifle innovation, well, examples are scarce. I think that a demand by American consumers towards larger and more powerful was the real culprit in our addiction to gas, as is a lack of a truly economical alternative. Brilliant minds are working as we speak. When that solution is found, our addiction will be a thing of the past. Its important to note however, that true solutions are now only becoming feasible as the price of oil climbs...
Oil prices once they passed $80 bbl made alternative means affordable. The current index of $139 (most recent spike) means that just about all alternatives have been made affordable, if not cheaper to use. It's any infrastructure or upfront cost that will bite us when our dollar is at a weak point- that's where the problem is for most average americans having lesser buying power as consumers. On the commerce side of things, capital investment in larger projects is incredibly tight due to housing bubble bust.
Those with investment portfolios to play with can get in on ground floor and do very well for themselves, particularly when the dow is down in many sectors. Those who've already invested in electric cars and solar panel roofing have essentially recouped their investment on an accellerated schedule due to crazy price of oil.
Examples of collusion are scarce because our current government has been funded by their interests since rockerfeller standard oil days. Don't you find it odd that Bush, Rice, Chenney, and Card were all executives in oil or automotive industry, and that an executive branch would override a states right to self determine through judiciary branch means? And at the very same time, while hemmoraging california economy during deregulation enron scandal, they claim laissez fare?
As far as american consumers going for larger/powerful, nothing is stopping them from buying a new SUV. They're sitting there rusting on the new car lots while car mfg'rs are crying poor. Go for it. Bargain prices.
It's not possible for our government to enforce anti trust problems internationally. We lack jurisdiction, and it only takes one crooked politician in a third world nation to upset any agreement we make with others in industrialized situations, and bootleg fuel will become an underground market. This is a point in time when self reliance must rule the day.
America crying foul because someone's sand is over their oil? INDEED! hahahaa Mean ole china needs more oil to produce more bulk goods for walmart? Still want to blame china when we've done it to ourselves? It's comical! We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot over and over again, still thinking its someone elses job. Its our job. It's our country. If we're an addict, we need to deal with that. If we're wasteful, we need to admit it and find a better way. If speculators are making the whole world nuts with inflation, we need to stop participating in sickness. If die hard capitalists really want a free market, they'd better start stepping up to the plate for real, because the only viable alternative to stop the economic bleeding right now is to impose nationalized oil.
My ears are wide open for other suggestions/alternatives to this extreme measure. As things stand, the people who are still hiding behind the flag pointing fingers at commies everywhere still have yet to produce a solution other than passively pay the man. That plan has been in effect since bush took office. It wasn't working when $36bbl oil jumped to $80, it's not working when it jumped to $139, and it will continue to not work when oil is $200. Nothing is standing in the way of infinite oil prices other than international bankruptsies.
Aptera Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
please note, the sticker prices on these vehicles are 26.9k and 29k respectively, but due to being a small guy, is only taking orders within california. He cannot do mass production the way the rust belt used to.
That said, the rust belt has expressed an interest in revitilizing its manufacturing by producing alternative cars. There is an abundance of labor pool skilled in auto mfg laying waste due to lay offs, their economy really needs it, and america really needs these cars on the roads displacing gasolene engines.
SO... where are the free market die hard capitalist to pony up the cash? Hedging currencies with the euro??? hahahahaa
Oil prices once they passed $80 bbl made alternative means affordable. The current index of $139 (most recent spike) means that just about all alternatives have been made affordable, if not cheaper to use. It's any infrastructure or upfront cost that will bite us when our dollar is at a weak point- that's where the problem is for most average americans having lesser buying power as consumers. On the commerce side of things, capital investment in larger projects is incredibly tight due to housing bubble bust.
How do you figure? Gasoline here in the states still only averages $4.07. Are you talking alternatives at a power generation level or for autos? While I agree that the higher the per barrel price climbs, basic economics tells us that alternatives will be sought. However, just like during the Carter admin and the early '80s, we really don't know what tomorrow will bring. While I consider Peak Oil to be sound in theory, and the world demands 87 million barrels a day to the 85 million supplied, we don't know if this is it. I mean, if there is absolute certainty that we're screwed from this point forth, we can put all our effort into finding alternatives. But, there are men way smarter than me trying to short the USO everyday. There is still the speculative aspect of the market we must deal with.
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Those with investment portfolios to play with can get in on ground floor and do very well for themselves, particularly when the dow is down in many sectors. Those who've already invested in electric cars and solar panel roofing have essentially recouped their investment on an accellerated schedule due to crazy price of oil.
As the price of oil does not necessarily equate to the price of energy generation (although nat gas does, and there is a historical 6:1 ratio between the price of oil and nat gas), people are still not recouping the cost of solar panels. And electric cars??? C'mon. Though you're right about the Dow, it does offer signifigant investment oppurtunity at the moment. Well, not quite yet. We need to find a bottom in the financials and thats a LONG ways off yet.
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Examples of collusion are scarce because our current government has been funded by their interests since rockerfeller standard oil days. Don't you find it odd that Bush, Rice, Chenney, and Card were all executives in oil or automotive industry, and that an executive branch would override a states right to self determine through judiciary branch means? And at the very same time, while hemmoraging california economy during deregulation enron scandal, they claim laissez fare?
Not to be derogatory but I no idea what this means. I guess you can find an association between the former industries of members of the executive branch and the price of oil. Maybe conspiracy theories make people feel powerful, like they've figured something out that others haven't, that if the conspiracy is exposed then the underlying problem doesn't really exist and we can all enjoy our lollipops. NOT speaking of you, although this theory gets bandied around frequently and it smacks of conspiracy.
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As far as american consumers going for larger/powerful, nothing is stopping them from buying a new SUV. They're sitting there rusting on the new car lots while car mfg'rs are crying poor. Go for it. Bargain prices.
Ahh, the market at work. It's beautiful isn't it?!
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America crying foul because someone's sand is over their oil? INDEED! hahahaa Mean ole china needs more oil to produce more bulk goods for walmart? Still want to blame china when we've done it to ourselves? It's comical! We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot over and over again, still thinking its someone elses job. Its our job. It's our country. If we're an addict, we need to deal with that. If we're wasteful, we need to admit it and find a better way. If speculators are making the whole world nuts with inflation, we need to stop participating in sickness. If die hard capitalists really want a free market, they'd better start stepping up to the plate for real, because the only viable alternative to stop the economic bleeding right now is to impose nationalized oil.
Ooh, you were nailing it right up till the end. If you mean a quasi-nationalization of unused resources like you described earlier (a kind of statoil) then you may be on to something. But federal ownership of the means of production of our most essential industry. I'm sure that'll come off without a hitch. Perhaps there management of an oil company will be better than that of the war. OR A RESTAURANT Michelle Malkin » Senate votes to privatize its failing restaurant
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My ears are wide open for other suggestions/alternatives to this extreme measure. As things stand, the people who are still hiding behind the flag pointing fingers at commies everywhere still have yet to produce a solution other than passively pay the man. That plan has been in effect since bush took office. It wasn't working when $36bbl oil jumped to $80, it's not working when it jumped to $139, and it will continue to not work when oil is $200. Nothing is standing in the way of infinite oil prices other than international bankruptsies.
Simply reduce demand. Through alternative energy and then exporting that technology around the world. But nationalizing a resource that is our most important at the moment is the path to ruin.
Aptera Motors - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
please note, the sticker prices on these vehicles are 26.9k and 29k respectively, but due to being a small guy, is only taking orders within california. He cannot do mass production the way the rust belt used to.
That said, the rust belt has expressed an interest in revitilizing its manufacturing by producing alternative cars. There is an abundance of labor pool skilled in auto mfg laying waste due to lay offs, their economy really needs it, and america really needs these cars on the roads displacing gasolene engines.
SO... where are the free market die hard capitalist to pony up the cash? Hedging currencies with the euro??? hahahahaa
Yes, they are hedging in the Euro at the moment. Combine disfunctional credit markets, unproven technology and you have the recipe for a very bad investment. Why try to be a hero? It's like trying to pick a bottom in the market. Let some other guy catch the knife when its falling. It the technology does turn out to be viable, there will be plenty of time to get in.
Remember Enron and the west coast power blackouts? Criminal! Corporations and big business are uncontrolled and affect the nations economy through their actions. Self- regulation doesn’t seem to be a factor on how they operate with the best interest of the nation in mind.
Are more Enron type companies needed in this country?
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Originally Posted by pghquest
What a bunch of hogwash.. Who's suggesting that we should have companies that are allowed to violate laws like Enron did?
Well lets see if I can think of a few Global Crossing, Tyco, HDR, Halliburton, Blackwater, Anderson Consulting, all seemed to have in the past or present affected the stock market, the economy of the nation, stockholders, operated in improperly with government contracts, acquired government money falsely, moved corporate offices offshore to Abu Dhabi U.A.E. and other locations to avoid taxes and government requirements under the U.S. laws. And don’t forget several of the major housing retailers for sales and mortgage companies that have caused the housing bubble where everyone looked the other way on qualified buyers. Yeah,,, everyone is self regulated and controlled very well without government monitoring. Just because some things may not be against the law doesn’t mean that it’s ethical, moral or right!
Corruption seems to be the norm with corporations and big business with or without government.
babyorr I cannot do your reading for you. You're either aware of what renewables are, what resources each requires, what each costs, what the trade offs are... or you are not.
The technology has already been proven. There were electric cars in california, a market was created for them, the terms were lease only, and when they tried to buy them at the end of the lease the car mfgs confiscated and destroyed them. I'm sorry you didn't pay attention to reality as it was happening, but I couldn't possibly relay the volumes I've been reading for the past 12 yrs about americas energy equation. Seriously, you have to read if you want to know. If you never wanted to know, then I guess this ends this dialogue.
I appreciate your brevity harborlady. If my knowledge of renewables is lacking, I'm sorry, though thats not the problem. I share your optimism of what our future holds. New technologies will one day make our dependence on oil trivial. However, what I do not share is your conspiracy theory regarding "big oil" and renewables. The convergence of ingenuity, timing, pinache and downright luck that it would take to woo the American consumer simply hasn't yet existed. Many have tried; all have failed. The ability to build a quality vehicle with excellent gas mileage has been around for many years,Before Modern SUV Downturn, a 41-MPG Compact-Car Revolution for the Post-Truman Set: Time Machine (April 1954) - Popular Mechanics
Please, lets not kid ourselves though. Create a fuel efficient vehicle that Americans WANT to buy, and all these worries of oil will cease to exist. It hasn't existed yet. No evil oil company has blocked its creation. The men in black haven't haven't seized patents. The illuminati don't hold the key. We do. And we will find it.
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