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Your words Pawporri...And that steroid investigation mess, was the damndest thing I've ever seen. I didn't know I paid my representatives to question baseball players about whether they jab a needle in their ass or not...Listen, you're hurting and you're angry. I get it. You want SOMEBODY to pay for rising gas prices. I semi-understand. You don't want to go down this road however. Until alternatives are acheived, the oil suppliers have pricing power. If they're pissed and extra costs are imposed on them, they'll pass that on to the consumer. I would be careful with trotting out "anti-trust" laws just to dole out some punishment, because you'll get plenty in return. With regard to oil companies acting in their own self-interest, should it be any other way? They're not there to snuggle...
There you go again, rationalizing everything they do and calling us the boy who cried wolf. If you are satisfied paying more and more for gas that's OK for you. I don't want anyone to pay for high gas prices, I want them lowered because they are inflated. And oil cos. will continue to have pricing power only as long as we let them. Anti trust is not about punishment, its about regulation, my friend, last time I looked........
Steroid was a dog and pony show, when we could have been focused on big oil. Now I think I know why you are defending them so much "If they are pissed, they will pass it on etc. (Your words). Are you that afraid of them?God forbid we should get them mad at us. Give me a break !!!!!
There you go again, rationalizing everything they do and calling us the boy who cried wolf. If you are satisfied paying more and more for gas that's OK for you. I don't want anyone to pay for high gas prices, I want them lowered because they are inflated. And oil cos. will continue to have pricing power only as long as we let them. Anti trust is not about punishment, its about regulation, my friend, last time I looked........
Steroid was a dog and pony show, when we could have been focused on big oil. Now I think I know why you are defending them so much "If they are pissed, they will pass it on etc. (Your words). Are you that afraid of them?God forbid we should get them mad at us. Give me a break !!!!!
Hey man, you're ready to nationalize oil. Talk about afraid. And you have finally raised a good point. The value of the dollar plays a large role in the price we pay at the pump. Think about it.
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And oil cos. will continue to have pricing power only as long as we let them.
If you mean by, "continue to let them", develop alternatives, then sure, we have control over whether or not they have pricing power. Otherwise, not so much. Nothing congress can say or do will lower the price of oil without affecting supply. I think your problem is stemming from the fact that you see these corporations as an enemy and government as an ally. They're not. You depend on them, yet you wish to punish them. No disrespect is intended here, but you went to school when the black arts of Socialism and Communism were still valid political ideologies and government was your friend. Not so much.
Wrong on both counts. I trust neither guvmint nor big biz. When I went to school all the hippies were out there yelling "Don't trust the government." You know the same ones that are ready to sign their souls over to Obama today because they believe he will solve all our problems.
Youy say I am hurting and sore. Wrong on hurting. As far as sore, it goes much deeper than that. I'm mad as hell and I ain't gonna take it anymore, is more like it.
And communism is still an insidious black art as documented and footnoted in a well written treatise on the subject called "Treason" by Ann Coulter. Dare ya to refute the REAL facts she advances with excellent support.
Your ideology that I find distasteful is the rationalization of GREED. It is called a deadly sin for a reason and that reason is not strictly religious.
I hope I am wrong about your aim in our debate. Please advise if I am.
Finally, my complaint about big oil is that they have gone off kilter in our checks and balances laissiz-faire system and need to reined in. Pressure by the people, whom I still believe are in charge will bring about chamge. Our country has not changed that much in the last 40 years that "We the people" can't make a difference. If you don't think so just watch.
By the way, you are a pretty good debater, but what so you really believe ???
Thank you for the compliment Pawporri. Have you ever seen Wall street with Sheen and Douglas? The speech Douglas gives, greed is good? Thats basically the only absolute about human beings I can find. Now, greed can be good, or greed can be bad. Through sheer greed human beings create the innovations that move society forward. Or, the lust for power can cause a man to create his entire life around the illusion of perfection, so that he can one day be elected. If we're left up to the devices of good will, cooperation and sharing, we can acomplish much. Those just aren't strong enough motivators when times are hard. We can always rest assured that man will fall back on self-interest. Now, in our PC society, no one wants to hear that. With that said, we can either harness that, or we can reject it; however we decide to go it still doesn't change the fact that man will most always act in self interest.
As far as government, I want to trust our elected leaders, I really do. But their abuses and incompetence is far reaching. When they show they have the ability to accomplish simple tasks, perhaps then they can be trusted to be the stewards of our most important industry, which right now is oil. They simply aren't.
I know you're not wrong about "we the people" still being in charge. Get the American people moving as one towards a goal and nothing can stop them. The Depression, Fascism, the moon, are all examples of challenges the American people have met head on, and eventually triumphed over. With that said, I don't think we can overlook the fact that corporate America is the engine that moves our world. Our greatest innovations happen in the private sector, both in small business and multi-nationals. I understand what you say Pawporri about forcing big oil to change. I just simply do not agree. Anti-trust laws cannot change the fact that China demands more oil everyday. It can't change the fact that the entire world can only pull 85 million barrels of oil a day from the ground. We use 87 million, per day. I too would like a quick fix to this problem; it simply doesn't exist. Big oil and the oil services would love to rake us over the coals even more than they already do; demand destruction is already starting to take place here though. If enough oil could come online to lower the price somewhat, demand would again rise and they would make more than they do now. And you're right; though I don't think that Communism is alive and well, the light beer version is certainly popular nowadays. Its just a path we should not go down. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. I'm tired and will probably write more tomorrow.
Excellent points. As stated earlier, we coincide idelogically. I do not intend to imply that
the solution will not only be painful but it will be lengthy. Like you you, I do not see the leadership in the governmental ranks that is capable to lead this country to success. I mean, we have in our populace some phenomenal talent and 90% of it is in the business sector. I find it very disheartening that the best we can come up with is McCain and Obama.
By reining in big oil I mean that we need to provide proper regulation and motivation to use our own country to drill in. We can't morally or ethically ask other countries to supply their oil to us while we sit on our own resources. While they drill here now we need leadership that is viably committed to alternative developments - especially hydrogen because it is pure. Our dependence on external resources is leading to complete instability as a nation and it is absolutely necessary.
Finally, beware of taking the red menace lightly. Vladmir Putin was and still is KGB. The
propaganda and communist infiltration of the state department is alive and very well as
we write.
Your thoughts on human nature are very well stated. I believe I am a little more optimistic, overall, than you but thats just mind set.
Excellent points. As stated earlier, we coincide idelogically. I do not intend to imply that
the solution will not only be painful but it will be lengthy. Like you you, I do not see the leadership in the governmental ranks that is capable to lead this country to success. I mean, we have in our populace some phenomenal talent and 90% of it is in the business sector. I find it very disheartening that the best we can come up with is McCain and Obama.
By reining in big oil I mean that we need to provide proper regulation and motivation to use our own country to drill in. We can't morally or ethically ask other countries to supply their oil to us while we sit on our own resources. While they drill here now we need leadership that is viably committed to alternative developments - especially hydrogen because it is pure. Our dependence on external resources is leading to complete instability as a nation and it is absolutely necessary.
Finally, beware of taking the red menace lightly. Vladmir Putin was and still is KGB. The
propaganda and communist infiltration of the state department is alive and very well as
we write.
Your thoughts on human nature are very well stated. I believe I am a little more optimistic, overall, than you but thats just mind set.
Great, I think I see where you are coming from now. It is a shame that the best we can do is McCain and Obama, as well as sitting on our own resources. With regard to business over gov, I can better predict that a business will act in its own best interest and can plan accordingly. With gov, its a tossup and nobody knows whether they are truly being altruistic, or simply looking for re-election. Personally, I can always trust the profit motive. Putin is the dirtiest kind of hack, but a brilliant political strategist. He knows that the Russian people desire to matter on the world stage again and are willing to overlook his power grabs if they get it. I think that our threat from Communist idealogues was greater though during the FDR years as they saw the great things the Soviets were doing with industrialization and there were many sympathetic to Stalin in his administration. No disresect intended here, but I'd like to get at why you feel an American version of nationalization would have any different results than in the USSR and why they would ever cede control once they had it?
Wow, and so you find examples of "collusion"...and you're still willing to cede MORE control to government!!! If someone is willing to take the risk to build a refinery, now, with crack spreads ensuring operation at breakeven or a loss, then they should be allowed to. Government should have no hand in that decision. I push the free market simply because we have recourse if we find wrongdoing. You no longer buy their product, or you buy less, or you create an alternative that spells the end. When you give control to the Feds, you have no recourse; even if you vote them out, the laws stay on the books in nearly all circumstances. They don't fluctuate in size according to need, they just grow ever larger. What exactly do you think they're going to do? Do you HONESTLY believe that they can run Exxon nearly as efficiently as Exxon can? Are they going to take Exxon's profits and funnel them into alternatives? They can't run the senate restaurant, let alone develop world shattering technology. NASA isn't nearly the organization it was in the '60s and '70s; the next time we go to the moon, it will be corporate sponsored. Further, by what inane logic should Exxon or anyone else be forced to take profit and put it to work developing "alternatives"? Do you honestly think they will work diligently to develop the technology that will spell their doom? Or, really, will you pay MORE so they can make up the spread?
Nobody in the history of business ever thought to deliberately short the market to whip up frenzy. Nope, x box never did that, and neither did elmo dolls, or cabbage patch dolls, and nutty folks standing overnight in parking lots to get a toy for christmas. Never happened. Now, when it comes to oil, deliberate shorts of the market aren't real? Commerce has a halo on it's head? They've got everyones best interest at heart? hahahahaaa
Your arguments are ludicris. Nationalizing our oil wouldn't entail taking over any corporation and running it the governments way. It would only mean we'd be the owners of our own crude off the spot market- the refining process would be completed by the same people, sold downstream to the same customers, only it would be our own oil and not international open market rules which have clearly been manipulated. Not sure why you refuse to see what was said and make things up. Just a whole lot of drama you've made up in keeping with 'a commie' scare OP suggestion. Bravo!
Idiocy for choices in a poll, I should have never taken the bait and let this thread die with a bunch of nannering neocons agreeing with each other to infinity and beyond!
Oil is traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange under the CFTC's watch. But contracts are also bought and sold on what lawmakers call "dark markets," such as overseas exchanges and in private deals, which are beyond the CFTC's jurisdiction and can be difficult to oversee. The agency has granted exemptions that allow big financial firms to trade oil contracts in excess of regulatory limits. The legislation aims to make it easier for the CFTC to use its emergency powers to track activity on these markets.
They're getting warmer! Now, lets see if the price of oil goes up even more drastically while bureacrats prepare their report for sept 15th, or will it stay steady knowing hawks are scouring the globe with their gaze? Care to hedge that? lol
Nobody in the history of business ever thought to deliberately short the market to whip up frenzy. Nope, x box never did that, and neither did elmo dolls, or cabbage patch dolls, and nutty folks standing overnight in parking lots to get a toy for christmas. Never happened. Now, when it comes to oil, deliberate shorts of the market aren't real? Commerce has a halo on it's head? They've got everyones best interest at heart? hahahahaaa
Your arguments are ludicris. Nationalizing our oil wouldn't entail taking over any corporation and running it the governments way. It would only mean we'd be the owners of our own crude off the spot market- the refining process would be completed by the same people, sold downstream to the same customers, only it would be our own oil and not international open market rules which have clearly been manipulated. Not sure why you refuse to see what was said and make things up. Just a whole lot of drama you've made up in keeping with 'a commie' scare OP suggestion. Bravo!
Idiocy for choices in a poll, I should have never taken the bait and let this thread die with a bunch of nannering neocons agreeing with each other to infinity and beyond!
They're getting warmer! Now, lets see if the price of oil goes up even more drastically while bureacrats prepare their report for sept 15th, or will it stay steady knowing hawks are scouring the globe with their gaze? Care to hedge that? lol
I know the financial boogeyman is out to get you. I think I finally understand what you have intended all along; that natural resources in America should stay American. Fine. Call it something else besides Nationalization. Listen, please educate yourself so that in the future you don't sound like an aging hippy. Obviously, you think there is supply out there that big oil doesn't want you to know about. There isn't; get over it. Prices will rise as crude becomes more scarce. This issue is complicated enough without Mulder and Scully being introduced to the equation.
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Your arguments are ludicris. Nationalizing our oil wouldn't entail taking over any corporation and running it the governments way. It would only mean we'd be the owners of our own crude off the spot market- the refining process would be completed by the same people, sold downstream to the same customers, only it would be our own oil and not international open market rules which have clearly been manipulated. Not sure why you refuse to see what was said and make things up. Just a whole lot of drama you've made up in keeping with 'a commie' scare OP suggestion. Bravo!
The above is the most stunted observation you've given in this thread. Please tell us how nationalization of resources IS NOT run by the government. Please, I BEG YOU, educate us with your wisdom.
See if you can't manage a less condescending tone if you mean to have a real discussion. That's not your objective, stated earlier on- you refuse to believe anything contrary to what you're accustomed to believe. Fine, don't. You're free to go ahead and delude yourself infinitely if you so choose. But lying in this forum isn't ok, even if it is legal for fox news to do so.
You can deliberately misinterpret, ignore, deny, use every tactic known to madison ave. Reality will assert itself every time. In this I have complete confidence.
Harbor Lady,
I had no intent to bait you in this discussion. I thought your input was erudite and factual. I may certainly have a conservative outlook but you should know I am far from neo on many issues. Your beliefs regarding big oil and your proxy voting data for Exxon are right on the money, in my opinion.
Your arguments with the "Babe" provide excellent points on both sides. Please give me and other readers enough credit to draw our own conclusions. I agreed him on some points and I still agree with you on some points. Thats what I like most about this forum is the ability to hear both sides of the debate without having to pick sides. I am tired of polarization and so are many people I know. Keep on debating and don't walk away from this issue. You know what you are talking about and so does he, you just see it from differing angles.
You should note the positive posting rating I sent ya. Lets hear some more.
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