What is your view towards the Confederate flag? (revolution, Somali, politicians)

[Huckleberry3911948]

its not and never was a symbol of racism. its a symbol of rebellion against the united states, which proved to be a horrible mistake.
elements in our country have elected to make it a rally symbol of hatred against white southerners which is in itself racial hatred.
the sooner the hatred stops the sooner we will move forward.
i have a dream.
FYI i am non white.

[uglyblackjohn]

I think that my view varies with the intent. When a hate group uses it, it's the group that I don't like more so than the flag itself. When a Southerner displays it in the same way that gays use the rainbow flag or U.T. fans display those burnt orange banners with the longhorn (Actually, I'm a huge USC fan so seeing these and remembering that Rose Bowl loss hurts me more than the C.F.), or the black and white MIA/POW flags, it may just represent that persons loyalties or interests. The Rebel/Revolutionary is a fixture in American history so I don't think that it has to represent racism. I think that many Southerners who use the flag are the same as Blacks who cling to Slavery as an excuse for their situation.
It's an odd symbol. On the General Lee, no big deal - UNLV using the Rebel as their mascot, no big deal - that little guy on Bugs Bunny cartoons, no big deal.
To me, it all comes down to intent.

[Tom Lennox 70]

I've heard that black artist Cowboy Troy has had the Confederate flag on his guitar once. There have also been blacks who have fought in the Civil War for the Confederacy. I'm tired I actually have a lot to post and ask about about this topic since I'm a minority whose thinking of flying the flag (definitely for NON-RACIST reasons)...I'll get into it tomorrow I need to go to bed.

[Frank_Carbonni]

The problem with the Confederate flag is that there is no recognizable symbol of the South on that level, so the instantly recognizable symbol of Southern culture and identification just so happens to belong to a nation that declared war on the United States and separated with the intent of protecting slavery.

I just wish the South could find a better symbol. The other one has more than a little to do with slavery and treason, but it is really all they have to represent the South. I mean there is the Bonnie Blue Flag, but not many people know what it is and those who know a lot of about flags are more likely to mistake it for the flag of Somalia than as a symbol of Southern pride.

[Irishtom29]

Originally Posted by elgusano

For starters, you could look at the pardons they issued. It was listed as a war between the United States of American and the Confederate States of America.

Meaningless. The United States refused to treat with Confederate agents and commisioners as agents of a legitimate power. Plus you have the little fact that The United States declared the seceding states as being in a state of rebellion, a rebellion The United States then supressed. Your view flies in the face of common sense and fact.

Originally Posted by elgusano

And to call it a "civil war" is simply an ignorance about what the term means. A civil war is one in which two or more factions are fighting over the same land. This was a war of aggression about the secession of certain independent states.

So you assert. There are various definitions of the term. And in any event I prefer to call it the War of the Rebellion.

Originally Posted by elgusano

Lincoln was a tax and spender of modern magnitude, and he wanted to preserve the Union in order to tax the South (which provided 60% of the revenue of the entire united states) to spend on "internal improvements" in the north.

That Lincoln mentioned lost revenues hardly shows that revenues were the cause of the war. The war was fought over secession and that was caused by the need to protect slavery.

Originally Posted by elgusano

Whether right or wrong, they had the right to secede.

Another unfounded assertion. No right to secession is stated in the Constitution. If it were the Rebels could've taken their case to the courts, gained favorable rulings and seceded legally. But as no such right exists they had to appeal to rebellion.

Originally Posted by elgusano

You're kidding, right? Go to the courts that wanted to keep them for their taxes?
.

You imply that anyone who doesn't win their case in court is then justified in using violence to gain their ends. That's anarchy.

Originally Posted by elgusano

Being on the losing side is not synonymous with being on the wrong side.

I'm safe in saying that those who wanted to both destroy The United States AND protect slavery were in the wrong.

Originally Posted by elgusano

Not all slave states seceded. There was nothing about freeing the slaves until the war was several years old

Not all the slave states seceded but ONLY slave states seceded. This helps make it obvious that slavery was the cause of secession.

Originally Posted by elgusano

They're called "history books" and "official US documents". That was before history was rewritten by the PC race-baiters.

I have several hundred books on The War of the Rebellion. And I started reading about it in the 1950s, long before both PC and neo-Con cranks were around.

Originally Posted by elgusano

A good book to read is, "The South Was Right" by James Ronald Kennedy and Walter Donald Kennedy. They have scans of documents and transcripts of letters, etc.

Trash. They cherry pick documents to make their insane case. When you've read a couple of thousand books on the subject you'll be better able to come to sensible conclusions.

[kcallen2004]

I live in Canada, in a border town actually (Windsor/Detroit) and don't see it often at all. When I do see it, I automatically feel uncomfortable and wonder why the person chose to display it. In my experience, it hasn't represented a positive sort of thing. JMO

[rogercobb]

I was raised in New England and while the flag is rather offensive to me, people should be able to fly it. Its a part of American culture. As it is, I see few Confederate flags here in Orlando. Puerto Rico and Mexican flags are more prevelent than any other in this area.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

The problem with the Confederate flag is that there is no recognizable symbol of the South on that level, so the instantly recognizable symbol of Southern culture and identification just so happens to belong to a nation that declared war on the United States and separated with the intent of protecting slavery.

I usually agree with your posts Frank, but I gotta take issue with this one. The Confederacy did not declare war on the United States. It can be argued that the South fired the first shot (at Ft. Sumter) but it can be equally argued that the reason was that the federal garrison were armed troops of a foriegn nation in Confederate territorial waters. Point is, it is all a matter of historical perspective.

If one argues that the right to secede did not exist, then it could be logically concluded that the South started the war. If if did exist (which I maintain it did -- whether it was wise or not is a different subject -- by virtue of the fact nothing in the Constitution forbade it and the Union was a voluntary federation of soveriegn states), then the Confederacy had a right to act in its own defense.

As far as the slavery issue is concerned, to deny it played no role at all in secession would be foolish. At the same time, other reasons were given in the various ordinances of secession, and the states of the Upper South didn't mention slavery at all. This fight had probably been coming for a long time. There were animosities and differences between the North and South that predated any controversy over slavery.

I just wish the South could find a better symbol. The other one has more than a little to do with slavery and treason, but it is really all they have to represent the South. I mean there is the Bonnie Blue Flag, but not many people know what it is and those who know a lot of about flags are more likely to mistake it for the flag of Somalia than as a symbol of Southern pride.

The "treason" thing has been debunked many times before. And anyway, the flag most people think of as "the Confederate Flag" was never officially adopted by the CSA government. It was a Battle Flag designed for use by soldiers in the field because the first official flag of the Confederacy (the true Stars and Bars) too much resembled the United States flag (intentionally by the way) and it caused confusion among the smoke and clutter of battle.

Last point, related to the intention resemblence of the Stars and Bars (First National Flag) to the United States flag, is that it is important to note the states which formed the Confederacy did NOT wish to seperate themselves from the ideals of the original Union nor the Constitution. Rather, from a political connection with northern states which only by default kept the name United States. In fact, when the representatives from the original seceding states...South Carolina thru Texas...met to form the new nation, some actually suggested calling it "United States". Feeling that it was they who represented the true ideals of the Founding Fathers.

Off on a tangent, oh man, I often promise myself I am not going to get drawn back into these type discussions/debates...after having participated in an earlier one which covered just about every aspect under the sun! LOL

//www.city-data.com/forum/polit...-you-feel.html

Bottom line is, symbols mean different things to different people, much depending on their own experiences and outlooks. There is not a single one I can think of that does not carry some sort of negative baggage to some group, and this includes the United States Flag. The vast majority of Southerners who display the Confederate Flag (Battle Flag or whatever) do so because we are proud of our region and heritage. This includes our ancestors fighting spirits during the War Between the States (most of whom, just like their northern counterparts, didn't give a damn about slavery one way or another). And we very much despise and resent that certain hate groups use it to parade their twisted philosophies (but they do the same with the American Flag and Christian Cross). In fact, as I am sure you know, many regiments composed mostly of Southern men would use the Battle Flag in some form or fashion during World War II when we kicked Nazi philosophy into scattered pieces...

Here is a good link to a resolution by the Sons of Union Veterans (I am a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and we have very good relations with this equally proud organization).

SUVCW Battle Flag Resolution

Ok...outta here for a bit.

[elgusano]

Originally Posted by TexasReb

In fact, when the representatives from the original seceding states...South Carolina thru Texas...met to form the new nation, some actually suggested calling it "United States". Feeling that it was they who represented the true ideals of the Founding Fathers.

A point that many people forget, so I thought it worth quoting.

Did (do) states have a right to secede?

Thomas DiLorenzo in his book, "The Real Lincoln", shows that almost every political leader of that time and earlier knew it to be so.

Many of the written agreements with individual states specifically spelled it out in writing.

Our founding fathers stated such. Thomas Jefferson, in his first inaugural address said:

If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union, or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left to combat it.

Fifteen years later, after New England Federalists attempted to secede, Jefferson said:

If any state in the Union will declare that it prefers separation ... to a continuance in the union .... I have no hesitation in saying, 'Let us separate.'

The delegates at Virginia's ratification ceremony said:

The powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression.

James Madison (in Federalist Paper 39) cleared up exactly what "the people" means, saying that the proposed US Constitution would be subject to the people:

not as individuals composing one entire nation, but as composing the distinct and independent States to which they respectively belong.

IOW, individual states are sovereign.

Even union politicians saw the right to secede as a right of individual states. Jacob M Kunkel:

Any attempt to preserve the Union between the States of this Confederacy by force would be impractical, and destructive of republican liberty.

In the north, both the republican and democratic parties wanted to permit the South to secede in peace.

The South seceded because Washington destroyed the vision that was laid out in Federalist Paper 45, in which Madison guaranteed:

The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite.

Almost every major northern newspaper favored permission to secede in their editorials.

Lincoln's Gettysburg address was evaluated by H. L. Mencken:

It is poetry not logic; beauty, not sense.

In the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln said:

to the cause of self-determination -- government of the people, by the people, for the people should not perish from the earth.

\

Mencken astutely and correctly observed:

It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of people to govern themselves.

Secession, like the right to keep and bear arms, is the ultimate protection against tyranny in government. Lincoln was both a tyrant and a hypocrite.

[elgusano]

BTW, the US Constitution does not permit, nor does it deny the right to secession.

The Fed does not have rights not granted to it by the Constitution or by individual states.

Let me ask you a question:

Did the colonies have the right to secede from England?