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Oh, puh-lease! If you're making $250K, that's what - at least $14,000 a month in take home pay?! We make half that and can easily afford a half million dollar home. Even on the coasts you could live well off $250K. I know - I've lived in coastal California.
I'm not making close to that much. But it wouldn't be hard for a small business to put up those kinds of numbers and for the take-home pay to still be a small fraction of $14k a month. Remember, self-employed folks pay both ends of payroll taxes, all their health insurance (which is only deductible in the amount over 7% of AGI), local self-employment taxes and licensing. THEN they get to pay income taxes on what's left after that. Sure, I'd rather own my own business than work for the man. But I know I'm doing better with a W2 and a stable job, with some semblence of a life and free time on my hands, than I'd be doing with a 1099, lots of creditors, very unstable income and incredible stress.
Whether you believe $250,000 is "rich" or not, doesn't addess the underlying question of why should those who are thought to be "rich" pay more in taxes than everyone else?
That's a socialist idea of income redistribution. Countries have been drained of their top people when they start doing that. Our society seems to have an "entitlement" mindset. I "deserve" to have a house, two cars, large screen TV, trips to DisneyWorld and all the rest of it, no matter how much I make. And if you make more than me, you should pay more taxes, so I can pay less to fund this lifestyle. Sorry. Who is John Galt?
BTW, I fall in the below $250,000 income bracket. I just don't want socialism. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it won't work here.
Whether you believe $250,000 is "rich" or not, doesn't addess the underlying question of why should those who are thought to be "rich" pay more in taxes than everyone else?
Well said. I'm not rich. But I don't feel entitled to other people's money. And why would they work hard, sacrifice, take risks, etc. if they knew it would be handed to me?
This proposition misses the point that small business owners worked hard to earn that money, probably incurred a lot of debt, probably were unable to sock away any savings, etc. Even if they earn $250k (the magic number) one year, they are far, far from rich.
Let small business owners keep their reward. Small business is what made this country great.
well as most say they should have not done anything they could not afford
For a lot of people, it's very tempting to say "if you make $250,000+ per year, TOO BAD if you don't like paying high taxes -- forgive me if I don't cry for your poor little rich self."
However, it's wrong in PRINCIPLE. It's about your character - are you honest and responsible, or are you greedy and spiteful?
It's this Robin Hood idealogy of stealing from the rich to give to the poor. If the poor don't like being poor, they can change it in two ways:
THE HARD WAY: work hard, study hard in school and graduate, and work to put yourself through college even if it's just a 2-year community college to start with
THE EASY WAY: sit back and elect politicians who, in return for your vote, will unethically take money away from rich people and give it to you
The poor are poor for a reason. In America, the system has ALWAYS been that if you are smart enough and willing to work hard enough, you can achieve ANYTHING YOU WANT. If you're poor in America, it's because you're just not as clever and/or not as hard a worker as others. If you're an incompetent 7th-grade drop-out f'-up who can barely hold onto a job flipping burgers at McDonalds...that's your own fault. You make your own choices and decisions, and the consequences are yours to bear. If you're an incompetent f'up, it's not our fault, nor is our job to make it right. Life ain't fair, not everything gets made right.
Just as when you make good decisions you get to enjoy the good consequences (rewards), when you make bad decisions you have to bear the bad consequences. Your actions, good or bad, are yours alone -- and you alone own the consequences, good or bad.
It's stupid to punish people for doing well. For every dollar you make, ****** 'Bama wants to have his big liberal government swoop in and snip sixty-eight cents out of your hand -- meaning that when you work for a dollar, you only get 32 cents. That's WRONG and UN-AMERICAN...remember the Boston Tea Party?
The idea that the harder you work, the harder the government bleeds you and steals from you (and let's face it, taxes are legislated stealing) - that's dumb. It should be the harder you work, the MORE you get, not less.
You want to eat and not live under a cardboard box? GET A JOB!
You want nice things in life? STOP BEING A STUPID F'-UP SO YOU CAN GET A JOB OTHER THAN MCDONALDS OR WALMART!
I call Bullsh*t. Some people are poor because they are lazy, but the great majority of poor are poor because they were born into it and many tried as hard as they could and still couldn't get out. When you are very poor, you spend all your energy making sure you don't starve to death. Self-improvement goes out the window. You start making bad decisions because you are desperate.
Sometimes you can make good decisions and take good actions and it STILL turns out bad. This idea that everybody who is poor is that way by choice is really ridiculous. What if you get hit by a car while you're walking to your 3rd job? What if the house you could barely afford to keep burns down or gets washed away in a hurricane? What if your parents are disabled and you have to support them rather than saving your $?
I guess you don't care about any of that. Well, I do. Democrats do. We think when bad luck hits good people, the government should step in and help.
Some people are poor because they are lazy, but the great majority of poor are poor because they were born into it and many tried as hard as they could and still couldn't get out. When you are very poor, you spend all your energy making sure you don't starve to death. Self-improvement goes out the window. You start making bad decisions because you are desperate.
Again - it's all a matter of the choices you make. If illegal immigrants can feed their families of 12 on the less-than-minimum-wage pay that they make, then an American making minimum wage or more (i.e. more than one job) most certainly can too. If you make bad decisions - i.e. buy things on credit that you can't afford, drop out of school, etc., then there will be consequences, and it's on you to bear them. If you don't like how things are in your life, you have the power to change it here in America. The worst-off Americans today have it lightyears better than the immigrants in New York City in the late 19th and early 20th centuries...and all those tough, hardworking people buckled down and made ends meet. So can anyone today, if they want to badly enough. Thing is, folks now know that if they simply choose not to work and whine loud enough, they'll get free money (welfare) from lying selfish Democrats like you. Why not take the easy route, right. Welfare pays people to stay put. Without welfare, your situation will suck enough that you'll be willing to change it. With welfare, you've got no reason to work harder and lose the free money. Stupid liberals.
You can pick out imaginary extremes, but they don't disprove the point: the average person who is poor is that way for lack of (a) brains and/or (b) will. There are MILLIONS of American success stories, of people born into starvation or war or poverty or what have you, who want a better life bad enough that they're willing to work hard enough. Everyone in this country can trace their roots to ancestors who were worse off. So enough with the fake drama and the bitching. Hard work never killed anyone. Case in point: Lawrence Welk, who went from living under a dirt-covered wagon in North Dakota with his immigrant family, to a rich entertainment star with his own TV show. No one stepped in and gave him welfare. He wanted a better life badly enough, that he was willing to work hard enough to get it. That's the beauty of America, you can always get more if you're willing to work harder. You talk about poor people being too "preoccupied with starving" (bullcrap, ramen is 10 cents each) - try living outside under a wagon in North Dakota, where it's -40 degrees in the winter. If that can breed a Hollywood star, then a crappy apartment in an inner city can breed a lot more. And it has.
You can survive on ramen, beans, water, and a cheap 1-room apartment. As my grandmother used to say "How quickly luxuries become necessities" - there is a difference between needing and wanting. You can survive on the minimum VERY easily on minimum wage, with plenty left over to go to night school so that you can work your way up in the world. In America, there isn't anything holding you back except yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastlady
Sometimes you can make good decisions and take good actions and it STILL turns out bad. This idea that everybody who is poor is that way by choice is really ridiculous. What if you get hit by a car while you're walking to your 3rd job?
What if my hair was made of green spinach? Yes, there are accidents. People get hit by lightning. It's a rare occasion, not the norm. The vast majority of poor people aren't being hit by cars on the way to 3rd jobs. I didn't say "everybody", and you can't prove truth wrong by making up semantics. Poor = lack of brains, talent, and/or will to work REALLY hard.
If illegals can come here from Mexico in droves and all get jobs, there is plenty of work for the people already here. Proof positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eastcoastlady
I guess you don't care about any of that. Well, I do. Democrats do.
No, you care about doing things that will make you feel like you're being a caring person, because that makes you feel good. It's about you and your own selfish feelings. Welcome to humanity.
Life isn't fair; it's not anyone's job to make things right for everyone, this isn't kindergarten where the teacher steps in and makes everyone happy. If someone doesn't like something, they can change it for themselves.
Liberalism: the haunting feeling that someone, somewhere out there is capable of doing something for themself.
If someone doesn't like their life, they have the power to work to change it. They're not incapable and in need of you to ride in on your big white horse and save them or show them the light. We're all just fine without you, thanks.
It's not the job of those who do things right to be penalized for the mistakes of those who do things wrong -- i.e. it's not the job of the financially successful to sacrifice their hard-earned rewards to give free money to inner-city folks who have made, and continue to make, bad life choices. And it's most certainly not any government's job (or right) to FORCE us to.
Last edited by SouthernFarmer; 10-03-2008 at 12:55 PM..
Whether you believe $250,000 is "rich" or not, doesn't addess the underlying question of why should those who are thought to be "rich" pay more in taxes than everyone else?
That's a socialist idea of income redistribution. Countries have been drained of their top people when they start doing that. Our society seems to have an "entitlement" mindset. I "deserve" to have a house, two cars, large screen TV, trips to DisneyWorld and all the rest of it, no matter how much I make. And if you make more than me, you should pay more taxes, so I can pay less to fund this lifestyle. Sorry. Who is John Galt?
BTW, I fall in the below $250,000 income bracket. I just don't want socialism. It didn't work in the Soviet Union and it won't work here.
Wealth has already been redistributed from the lower and middle classes to the upper class for years. The pay gap between the average worker and CEOs just gets wider and wider every year. The easier solution would be for CEOs to take a wage cut and distribute it among their employess, then tax everyone the same. But we all know that's not going to happen thanks to greed and the CEO sense of entitlement.
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