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Youre right---my apologies. I lost track of who was ganging up on me. I had forgotten that Christian Arab opened this thread for no other reason than to call some countries crap-holes, which he accomplished in his very first line. All you did was take the cheap shot of telling me to leave my own country. Which of course requires no rational argumentative base.
No, what I said was that if you were that unhappy you might want to consider going someplace where you could be happier. People do it everyday. If you can call the place where you live a craphole it might be worth looking into other places. That's all.
The fact of the matter here is that these people were asking for their lunch hour to be moved from around 9pm to about 7:30pm so that they could eat/pray at the time to break their 14.5 hour day of fasting. They were not asking for an EXTRA break, just that they be allowed to take their break at the time when they were able to resume eating and drinking.
The other fact of the matter is that the other workers were obviously pissed and resentful that the company agreed to change the break time which affected all of them. God forbid someone have to eat their lunch early to accommodate someone else. They say that no accommodations are made for anyone else's holiday. I would like to know if they are paid Time and a Half on Christmas day and other Christian holidays. The reason time and a half is paid on Christmas is to compensate people for having to work on a holiday.
According to the article, "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which says employers must make a "reasonable" attempt to accommodate religious practices "unless doing so would pose an undue hardship," the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) says. "Undue hardship" means the accommodation would pose more than a minimal cost or burden to the employer, the commission says"
I do not think that a company bumping up the lunch hour an hour and a half is an "undue hardship". Therefore, under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, one could argue that the employer in this case did violate the law.
Even if these people did want time to pray, another company mentioned in the article found another solution to the request:
"Company spokeswoman Lexann Pryd-Kakuk says Gold'n Plump has agreed to give all employees, not just Muslims, two 10-minute breaks instead of one 15-minute break. The additional break "roughly coincides with prayer times," she says."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Prayer leads to work disputes - USATODAY.com
So lets see here. They left their country because let's face it, it's a crap-hole compared to America, they immigrated to America to provide better life for themselves and their families, but instead of assimilating, and respecting the cultures/laws/rules, they are throwing a temper tantrum, and demanding to change things to fit THEIR Islamic lifestyle. Unfreaken-believable
I came from a country that is a crap-hole compared to American, you know what I did? I worked hard, kept my trap shut, followed the rules/laws/culture and made every effort to assimilate rather than dispute. It's the least I can do to show my thanks to a country that took me in and gave me an opportunity for better life.
My favorite line is this I think GOD will understand that a hard-working, honest men/women providing for his/her cannot pray the required five times a day.
Why am I not surprised you are posting this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
The thing to remember here is...these are production jobs. It is not like these people work in cubicles where they can take a five to ten minute break and noone would be the wiser. In a factory or a processing plant, these people are on a line -- meaning, if one person leaves the line production will become backed up and will effect all the other workers on the line. Plus, there are often production schedules that must be met, and if the line is being stopped five times a day that could seriously hamper the factories output.
As immigrants it is these peoples responsibility to make their religous and cultural views mesh with their new reality -- living in America. It is NOT the US's responsibility to mesh its outlook with that of immigrants.
To me, this is very simple --- if you must pray 5 times a day it is your responsibility as a good muslim to find a job where that is doable. Otherwise, immigrating to a muslim theocracy might be something to consider.
They were not asking for time to pray 5 times a day. No shift any of the could have would span all five prayer times, first of all. The absolute most would be three, which is hardly relevant becuase they were not requesting time to pray even 3 times a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Not all the problem is caused by the Muslims: " When non-Muslim workers protested what they called preferential treatment, the plant returned to its original schedule
The US is, in fact, creating an "established religion" if it establishes Christianity as the model used to determined an acceptable schedule of reasonable religious observances. That is unconstitutional,
Absolutely true. And don't tell me that so many places are open on Christmas day. Yes, stores, pharmacies, etc. are open on Christmas. And yes, people do work. However they are being compensated with time and a half, in most instances (esp. when talking about retail) and most very religious Christians are able to get the day off if they wish. I know when I was going to college and working part time in a hotel, they wanted me to work on Christmas. I told them I wasn't working that day or Christmas eve either. They told me I had to. I said "Look, you can put me on the schedule, but I am telling you right now that I will not be showing up. And you will be the one getting the call to come and relieve the desk worker" I had told them previously that my family was on the other end of the state, and I was going home for Christmas, and that was that. They did not put me on the schedule and I was not fired.
The point I have mad in other threads is this, there are many ways our entire society is geared to accommodate Christians. Our work weeks are generally Mon-Fri. Christian holidays are national holidays, and Schools are on vacation or now "staff development days" for Christian holidays. Some kids are even getting the Jewish holidays off where there are a lot of Jewish kids. Christians who find it necessary to get to church every Sunday have endless opportunities to get a job that match that requirement, but Muslims will have a hard time many places, not only for prayer, which most of them will delay, but for their holy day which is Friday.
If any religion is accommodated, they all need to be, in accordance with the Civil Rights law mentioned above. Not just the easy religions but ALL of them, OR NONE of them.
For God's sake, DO NOT try to say that other religions are not accommodated, Congress just SHUT DOWN during a financial CRISIS, for not one but two days, for the Jewish holidays. And only about 8% of Congress is Jewish, give or take.
So, Congress can be shut down for two days during a crisis, but we cannot realistically expect non muslims to accept having their lunch 90 minutes early for a couple of weeks to accommodate Muslims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by camping!
In the case of the packing plant in Nebraska, the non muslim employees protested the hours the muslim employees were demanding and getting. Apparently the muslim employees said that their religion forbade them working past sundown and also on weekends. The non muslim employees were angry because that left them to pick up the slack --- including being forced to work all weekend hours. Is that fair? No, it is not. Again, I stress that I do not care if the employees are muslim, catholic, or hindu -- that while they can worship however they please, they cannot and should not demand that workplace make unreasonable accommadations to them. And that would include giving people of other religions the 'bad' hours and the muslims the good hours.
Please quote where you read this, because the only reference I could find to the Muslims objecting to the Saturday schedule was because their hours were basically cut on their regular days and they were forced to come in on an extra day, which happened to be Saturday, to make up the rest of the hours. And there religion does not prohibit them working after sundown or weekends nor did i read any implication that someone said that was the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Arab
Doesn’t the federal law of employment say that if you put an eight hour day, you are allowed a 15min break? I have no problem if they are using the 15minutes of break time to pray. If the employer caves-in and allows special time of prayer for one group, then that’s preferential treatment.
You remind me of one of the All In A Day's Work I just read in Reader's Digest:
A man in the military related this story: One morning a sergeant asked for all the jewish people to step forward. They did and the sargent gave them the day off because it was Rosh Hashana. The next week, he again asked for all the jewish people to step forward. This time, ALL the men stepped forward and the sargent said, only the people who were Jewish last week get to be Jewish this week, and they were given the day off for Yom Kippur.
I might have gotten the ranks wrong but the message is there. It was a cute one, and I love Reader's Digest. But that right there would be preferential treatment. So what can you do? Of course, if their are different religions and we are going to make different accommodations for each there will not be two religions with the exact same accommodations. There will be a difference and we cannot have every group claiming the other group has a better deal.
I wonder if this plant is open on Christmas? And if so, if Christian, who absolutely didn't want to work that day based on religios reasons, was fired for not showing up for work.... I bet the Muslims would have no problem showing up on Christmas, and would rather have a day of their choosing off instead, but no they are stuck with Christmas off (if it is in fact closed on Christmas). That would also be preferential treatment. The whole plant gets time off, when it only would have been a day selected by a portion of the workers.
Btw, one of the plants this company owns was raided in 2006 and almost 300 illegal immigrants were detained. They were replaced with somalian refugees for the most part. So, just goes to show you the quality of the company......
No, what I said was that if you were that unhappy you might want to consider going someplace where you could be happier. People do it everyday. If you can call the place where you live a craphole it might be worth looking into other places. That's all.
Apparenmtly, you think that would never occur to me without your brilliant strategizing on my behalf. Your blood pressure would be a lot lower if you worried less about where I'd be happy..
There are no guarantees in Iran of the right to practice religion.
But you knew that.
Christian Arab clearly and unambiguously referred to Somalia as a crep-hole country, not Iran.
I do not know very much about Somalia, as I have never been there. However, based on my visits, Iran is one of the least crap=hole countries I've ever been in. Regarding freedom of religion in Iran . . .
2% are non-Muslim religious minorities, including Bahá'Ãs, Mandeans, Hindus, Yezidis, Yarsanis, Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians.[25] The latter three minority religions are officially recognized and protected, and have reserved seats in the Majlis (Parliament).---Wikipedia
There. Now we both know that. Neverftheless, since I am an atheist, please excuse me if I do not use the status of religion as the only yardstick for measuring the crap-hole-ness of a country.
Yes it was directed at you. How dare you reserve the exclusive right all to yourself to decide which countries free people can call crapholes. And how dare you and bringthecontent reserve for yourselves the right to tell people to leave the country if they don't like it. How dare you assume that you can call a country a craphole that you hve never been in. And I have been in most of the countries that you guys call crapholes, and I was treated a lot better by people there than I have been by you. And I judge a country by the way ordinary people extend ordinary common courtesy to others and in my view, that makes your country a craphole.
If you don't like the countey that gives me the right to say those things, too, just leave. I demanded NOTHING, but he told me to leave.
You are consumed by political correctness syndrome. Anyone that thinks Americans should cater to all, even if it means bending the law, thus putting one group over another is delusional.
I call things the way they are, and I stand by my comments. I spent 16+ years living in two Middle Eastern countries before coming to American, and guess what? Both of them are crap-holes compared to America. You have to understand, or at least try to understand, that it’s not the peoples fault that their country is like that, it’s the failed and corrupt government fault. I’m glad to hear that you “toured� Around and met people from that region, but its huge difference between touring and spending a few years living there.
So let’s get back to the topic, employers shouldn’t have to make a choice between religion and profit. They exist because they provide a product, they make profit with their product, their profits pay their employees, get drift? If the employer accommodates their request, it means favoritism, it also mean that another employee (non Muslims) must fill the vacancy, and under Title VII, SEC. 2000e-2, subsection “j†that type of action is illegal. Plus, you will see other groups will complaining and possibly taking legal action (as they should). If the employer doesn’t accommodate their requests, then the employees have three choices, 1) find another job with these special conditions, 2) learn to respect our laws, or 3) find another country to live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
The fact of the matter here is that these people were asking for their lunch hour to be moved from around 9pm to about 7:30pm so that they could eat/pray at the time to break their 14.5 hour day of fasting. They were not asking for an EXTRA break, just that they be allowed to take their break at the time when they were able to resume eating and drinking.
And their request was denied. If they were really devout Muslims, then they should have negotiated the special conditions before taking the job. This story reeks of false cries of discrimination and “easy paydayâ€.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
The other fact of the matter is that the other workers were obviously pissed and resentful that the company agreed to change the break time which affected all of them. God forbid someone have to eat their lunch early to accommodate someone else. They say that no accommodations are made for anyone else's holiday. I would like to know if they are paid Time and a Half on Christmas day and other Christian holidays. The reason time and a half is paid on Christmas is to compensate people for having to work on a holiday.
Wouldn’t you also be “pissed†and “resentful†if a company favoring one group, and not your group?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
According to the article, "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which says employers must make a "reasonable" attempt to accommodate religious practices "unless doing so would pose an undue hardship," the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) says. "Undue hardship" means the accommodation would pose more than a minimal cost or burden to the employer, the commission says"
If the employer accommodates their request, this means that another employee (non Muslims) must fill the vacancy, which means favoritism. Under Title VII, SEC. 2000e-2, subsection “j†that type of action is illegal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
I do not think that a company bumping up the lunch hour an hour and a half is an "undue hardship". Therefore, under the Civil Rights Act of 1964, one could argue that the employer in this case did violate the law.
And I think the company should follow the law, and stick with the “normal†schedule to avoid putting one group above another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
Even if these people did want time to pray, another company mentioned in the article found another solution to the request:
"Company spokeswoman Lexann Pryd-Kakuk says Gold'n Plump has agreed to give all employees, not just Muslims, two 10-minute breaks instead of one 15-minute break. The additional break "roughly coincides with prayer times," she says."
Sounds fair…great. If it works for one company, doesn’t necessarily mean it will work for another company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
Why am I not surprised you are posting this?
Hi to you too. I was wondering when will my favorite Muslim apologist will contribute, and here you are. FYI, I created a thread in the Religion section, head out there and post your comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
They were not asking for time to pray 5 times a day. No shift any of the could have would span all five prayer times, first of all. The absolute most would be three, which is hardly relevant becuase they were not requesting time to pray even 3 times a day.
“He says some requests by Muslims for prayer time may be unreasonable because of the frequency. Muslims pray five times a day at specific times, which shift over the course of the year based on the sun's position. Each prayer takes five to 10 minutes.â€
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
Absolutely true. And don't tell me that so many places are open on Christmas day. Yes, stores, pharmacies, etc. are open on Christmas. And yes, people do work. However they are being compensated with time and a half, in most instances (esp. when talking about retail) and most very religious Christians are able to get the day off if they wish. I know when I was going to college and working part time in a hotel, they wanted me to work on Christmas. I told them I wasn't working that day or Christmas eve either. They told me I had to. I said "Look, you can put me on the schedule, but I am telling you right now that I will not be showing up. And you will be the one getting the call to come and relieve the desk worker" I had told them previously that my family was on the other end of the state, and I was going home for Christmas, and that was that. They did not put me on the schedule and I was not fired.
The point I have mad in other threads is this, there are many ways our entire society is geared to accommodate Christians. Our work weeks are generally Mon-Fri. Christian holidays are national holidays, and Schools are on vacation or now "staff development days" for Christian holidays. Some kids are even getting the Jewish holidays off where there are a lot of Jewish kids. Christians who find it necessary to get to church every Sunday have endless opportunities to get a job that match that requirement, but Muslims will have a hard time many places, not only for prayer, which most of them will delay, but for their holy day which is Friday.
Like it or not, we live in a Christian country. I know you Liberals and politically correct folks hate it, but it is what it is. Are you going to boo-hoo about that? Then stop being a hypocrite and don’t accept the money for your holiday days off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
If any religion is accommodated, they all need to be, in accordance with the Civil Rights law mentioned above. Not just the easy religions but ALL of them, OR NONE of them.
For God's sake, DO NOT try to say that other religions are not accommodated, Congress just SHUT DOWN during a financial CRISIS, for not one but two days, for the Jewish holidays. And only about 8% of Congress is Jewish, give or take.
So, Congress can be shut down for two days during a crisis, but we cannot realistically expect non muslims to accept having their lunch 90 minutes early for a couple of weeks to accommodate Muslims?
I don’t know how the government holiday works. All I know is, Congress takes too much time off, and I have never seen a president that spends so much time in his ranch like W. It’s pathetic. I think the government, especially today, should never take time off (other than Christmas, New Year, and Easter).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
You remind me of one of the All In A Day's Work I just read in Reader's Digest:
A man in the military related this story: One morning a sergeant asked for all the jewish people to step forward. They did and the sargent gave them the day off because it was Rosh Hashana. The next week, he again asked for all the jewish people to step forward. This time, ALL the men stepped forward and the sargent said, only the people who were Jewish last week get to be Jewish this week, and they were given the day off for Yom Kippur.
I might have gotten the ranks wrong but the message is there. It was a cute one, and I love Reader's Digest. But that right there would be preferential treatment. So what can you do? Of course, if their are different religions and we are going to make different accommodations for each there will not be two religions with the exact same accommodations. There will be a difference and we cannot have every group claiming the other group has a better deal.
Where do you draw the line? I realize in your little fantasy world, you would like to accommodate everybody, believe me, it’s a good idea, but that idea only works well in LA LA land, in the real world, YOU CANNOT ACCOMMODATE EVERYBODY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
I wonder if this plant is open on Christmas? And if so, if Christian, who absolutely didn't want to work that day based on religios reasons, was fired for not showing up for work.... I bet the Muslims would have no problem showing up on Christmas, and would rather have a day of their choosing off instead, but no they are stuck with Christmas off (if it is in fact closed on Christmas). That would also be preferential treatment. The whole plant gets time off, when it only would have been a day selected by a portion of the workers.
I love how you ask a question, then you answer it, funny stuff. They are closed because most if not all the plants activities ie deliveries are closed as well to celebrate a Christian holiday.
I call things the way they are, and I stand by my comments. . . . .
I’m glad to hear that you “toured”? Around and met people from that region, but its huge difference between touring and spending a few years living there.
.
So do I. However, I have never prceived myself as an oppressed minority member of any culture, so I do not feel a compelling need to start threads for the single purpose of lashing out at people that I hate.
Why doesn't your experience as an oppressed minority give you any sensitivity about the circumsances of Muslims living in a Christian country?
I lived in Jordan for two years, and I knew a lot of people like you, Chritians in a Muslim country, and not a single one of them was bitter and full of hatred and constantly searching for chances to lash out at the Muslims.
I had to work holidays for many years without extra compensation (24 hour store and I was the manager on salary) and yes, I got really angry with my employees who moaned and complained that they didn't get holidays off for 'religious reasons' even though they never mentioned a religion, nor requested any other days off besides Easter and Christmas... always thought that was a bit weird. Never requested Sunday off for religious reason...
And yes, it made me angry that I had to work a 27 hour shift by myself (convenience store, so it wasn't all that unusual to be running the store by yourself) on Christmas day last year because my employees called in sick after I told them they couldn't have the day off because they assumed they would and didn't put in a request in time... but I did it, it was my job. So now I'm not lenient at all when it comes to religions if they bring it up after they get hired. Did the muslims bring it up before they got hired and arranged it then? If so, awesome, let them do their prayer thing, if not, then they shouldn't be given special treatment. I certainly didn't.
For the most part, ita.....but, it is worth mentioning that Sunday is no longer a religious holiday of sorts. Everything is open on Sunday from stores to restaurants to bars. Plumbers will come out for service calls --- even on Easter Sunday (though it will cost you )
I guess what I am saying, is that america may have started out as a christian country, but we are moving towards secularism every day. Now, the problem is to make sure we don't take a giant step backward by accomadating islam to the point of living under a muslim theocracy vs a christian one (both wrong in my book)
For the most part, I agree, but it depends on where you live in America. Some parts are much more observant of this Sunday Sabbath stuff. My gripe is the completely weird and unreasonable prohibition on alcohol sales before noon on a Sunday where I live, 10AM will do . It's just is kind of weird that this little nod to the religious still exists. I suppose some rural places still have Blue Laws. But back to the workplace religion problems:
As America gets a larger and larger Muslim population I guess it is inevitable that this friction comes up. You are right on the money when you say we need to be mindful of a Muslim theocracy. It seems like SciFi right now but in twenty years, or thirty? We may see the same kind of encroachment of religion into mainstream life that we now see from Christianity with the same "what's the big deal?" attitude. By then we might all be used to five daily prayer breaks at businesses and who knows what else?
Apparenmtly, you think that would never occur to me without your brilliant strategizing on my behalf. Your blood pressure would be a lot lower if you worried less about where I'd be happy..
My blood pressure is perfect.
I don't give a damn where you live, if you're happy, if you fall off a roof.
I don't know you.
I was just letting you know that normal people who find that they hate where they are will go and find a better place to live. Then again, there are some people who just want to be unhappy. Sounds like you're one of them.
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